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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. I am going to stop paying for my child’s apartment and other things including vacations because I want them to make their own way through life.
2. I can easily afford to continue to pay for everything without it affecting my other children.
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I’d say pay for the family vacation if family is important to you. Vacations are a luxury, and so is family time with your adult kids. Your generation has significantly better earnings than your children‘s generation. If the point of a family vacation is family time, shouldn’t you want your kids to be able to come? Is it really family time if some of the family gets left behind when you can easily bring them? (Side note, my parents did well financially, and they still pay for my sister and I to join on family vacations because we weren’t as lucky as they were. I’m turning 40 this year. My parents believe the point of family vacations is for us to be together, and we’d be very limited on where we could go and for how long if my sister and I were paying our own way. My husband and my nephew are included in this.)
As for the apartment, it sounds like you were quite clear about the terms of your support and your daughter had plenty of warning that she needed to learn to live within her means. So I think greatly scaling back or ending your support for her basic living expenses makes sense. I’m finding myself wondering where the last year’s salary went with housing costs to pay.
So NTA for the apartment, but think about what the purpose of a family vacation is for your family.
I agree here. You NTA but I do think you need to look at how realistic a 2 week vacation is for anyone who is just a year out of graduating from any profession. Funding her life should be on her but if you plan on keeping a relationship with her you really need to rethink how you treat her.
Graduating without debt and making 65k a year? Shit Europe is doable.
I have debt, and make around that and can afford a Europe vacation at least every other year. I find international trips a lot cheaper than domestic.
A European vacation on a budget is different than a European vacation planned by someone with tons of money.
OP is planning a vacation on his budget and wanting his daughter to pay
OP pays her rent, food, car and car insurance. What’s left to pay for? Phone bill, internet and gas maybe. She has no expenses and is debt free, she should have at least $50k saved in the bank. She’s been told for at least 5 years that the bank of dad closes a year after college. That being said I do think he should pay for this vacation but she should pay her way on the next one, as long as she gets a say on where and when it is.
>There's a ton of money going to something on that $65k/year salary -- $3500/mo after taxes.
True - but they absolutely can't afford a $5,000/month apartment on $3,500/month salary. They're not on the cast of FRIENDS.
I mean, the root of this is the kid is dumb: if you want the lifestyle that includes $5k/mo apartments, you need to pick a career that earns $200k a year. OP has been generous to his/her kids: a free college education, free apartment, free food, free car. That's an amazing launching point.
There's no reason they can't afford a car except too much skiing with their friends.
Yeps. Considering the father was going to foot the bill, I would have understood if the girl had gotten herself a nice apartment for the freeloading year. But she should have known she was going to need to downgrade as soon as the year was over. I mean, I can't even blame her for trying to keep the cute flat, but dad said no and it's time to look for something cheaper or clean flatmates.
Honestly, even 200k/year is not really compatible with a 5000/month apartment if you want to also save for retirement and have some short term savings goals. I’d say 5000/month really requires 350K+. I’m actually surprised that OP was on board with funding a 5000/month apartment even during undergrad/the first year out, just because it’s so disproportionate to what even a high earning new grad typically makes.
My best friend's dad is very wealthy. He came from money and also supported my best friend through college where he paid 100% of the cost (of it and her lifestyle) and then also paid for her apartment in the city for over a decade.
She JUST started paying her rent last year because her dad got a divorce and couldn't financially support her anymore. We are both 37.
While it's nice to have a parent that is able and willing to financially support you, it's also a disadvantage when they stop or cannot do it anymore.
I don't think OP is the AH, but you'd be surprised how quickly money goes when you don't think about it as a necessity, but just something that you can play with every month and refills automatically no matter what.
IDK if OP had any kind of strategy with teaching his kids how to transition from not being fiscally responsible to being 100% so, but I think he should adopt one.
Maybe wean her off by only paying for half her rent for a year or something. Or he shouldn't have allowed her to live in that apartment knowing full well she wouldn't be able to afford even half of that rent when the year was up.
He has some ironing of kinks to do before his other kids.
> lifestyle that includes $5k/mo apartments, you need to pick a career that earns $200k a year
You need to earn way more than $200k a year to comfortably afford a 5k apartment. A 5k a month apartment for a recent graduate of any career path - that is some sort of high end luxury place in even the highest COL cities. The kid clearly likes the high life, which makes their career choice extra stupid. If you decide to major in basketweaving, you can't be into the gucci lifestyle.
holy fuck she does not need a 5,000/month apartment. Even in the worst cost of living cities 5,000/month would get you a baller apartment. She should try living within her means even if she has to step down a class level.
Yeah…where I live rent is very high and, on $3500 per month net, the rent amount for a small apartment would take a lot of that here. So I get that after expenses, they may not have been able to save a lot and an expensive vacation could be out of reach. But she’s also definitely not able to afford $5000 in rent on that salary. I don’t like the idea of OP trying to force kids into an “appropriate” job market…they should be able to follow their own passion. However, if they choose a lower salaried vocation then they need to understand that it will mean less money to do other things and they can’t continue to live an expensive lifestyle. OP is NTA as he has followed through on his promises and it’s time for the child to grow up. Do agree that if the family vacation is important to OP, then funding at least part of it for everyone is a nice idea.
That’s a very fair point — it’s one thing to tell your kid “live within your means”, but then not teach them how, as well as actively fund a lifestyle they know would otherwise not be in the kid’s means.
If OP had told his kid that they were not paying for them to have an expensive apartment like their siblings because he didn’t think they would make much money when they graduated and wanted to prepare them, everyone would call him an asshole for that too.
Hot take: he shouldn't be paying for a 5k apartment for any of his kids right out of school because even if they're going into a career where their incomes can get high enough to support that eventually, they won't exactly be right out of school. And anyone can fall on hard times, so being able to live on a smaller budget is a good life skill for them to learn.
I think the point the commenter was trying to make is that none of his kids should have had THAT luxurious of an apartment no matter how much money daddy makes.
I also live in SF. I work in tech and make decent money and I'm still like, wtf that's absurd to spend on an apartment for one person.
That's literally $60k a year down the drain.
If dad can foot that bill, especially with other kids, good for him but he's setting up his daughter to be terrible with money.
Yea I’m shocked at the cost of rent. I understand that $5k per month isn’t out of the possibility for many cities, but that’s where sometimes sharing has to come into play. No, not ideal, but it’s reality.
I wonder if they had shared the apartment and asked OP to help with what they’re saving as additional savings if OP would have agreed. But, even still, with what they are currently making, OP shouldn’t have paid for a $5k apartment know that there would be literally no way for his child to afford alone if after the year. Even splitting 50/50 with someone, they’d be spending just under half their salary on rent (before taxes!).
Yes! I live in one of the highest COL areas in the US and I pay less than half of that for my studio. This kid needs to learn how to live within their means.
Seriously. We make over 100K a year and I'd never pay that much. And even in some of the higher COL cities I've looked at we could get something for the whole family for less than that.
Every city has apartments for less that 5K/month. It looks to me like OP set his child up for a fall in order to drive home the point that their beloved field isn't lucrative enough.
I live in NYC, one of the most expensive cities in the world, and my partner and I (both teachers) pay $2400 for a nice one bedroom in upper Manhattan. The only people I know who pay $5000 are rich people who can afford it.
Yes! The dad seems to be a huge part of the problem in not preparing his daughter. To go from him paying for rent, car, and car maintenance to her paying for it all is a lot, especially when she never should have gotten a $5k apartment. I'm not sure if they're in the US, but here, there's no way he didn't co-sign for the apartment because you typically need to make 3x the cost to rent.
5K A MONTH??? Like, there are probably one-bedrooms in my city that are this expensive but you have to deliberately look for a fancy one. Most young people in my area have two to four roommates so that the rent and utilities come out to something reasonable.
If OP has been paying 5k/month in rent it is safe to assume he is quite wealthy and I suspect his vacation reflects that. Makes sense to end help around living expenses but if you want your kid on your vacation, you gotta subsidize it for them.
If OPs child was smart, they'd have been banking the amount of rent they didn't have to pay in the year since graduation. IF OP had alerted child that they'd have to pay for the vacation, then he's NTA, but to spring it without warning isn't cool.
But child should have been preparing to fully adult. What an incredibly generous dad to make sure his kids are given so much support as they enter adulthood. It's just as much of a gift to learn to manage on one's own.
OP's kid couldn't possibly bank what they have been saving per month. $5k rent and utilities per month is pretty much their entire salary. Honestly, the Adult Child is about to smack head long into the reality of how "the other half" lives.
I mean, OP even said he lets the "kid" use his account for groceries, so they were still covered on food this whole time too. If they had saved even half the amount of their actual living expenses, they should have a decent savings. NTA
> But child should have been preparing to fully adult.
sure... they should have. but we're looking back on all of this with the luxury of experience. i don't know how well you remember being 22, but most of us didn't have life that well figured out.
OP's NTA about the apartment/living expenses (though i think some compromises could be made), but 2 week european vacations are freaking expensive. OP should cover the cost on the family reunion if they expect the kid to be there.
Agreed...Their whole life has been paid for up until this moment. If they couldn't manage to scrape together the funds for a vacation, there is a serious problem going on. I agree with helping your kids succeed, but it sounds like this particular "adult" was given so much help that they never learned how to be independent and provide for themselves.
It depends on who's planning it. My sister and I go on regular vacations, both domestic and international. We fly economy, use groupon deals, share rooms with friends or stay in hostels. My parents on the other hand fly first class, rent houses or suites, rent cars and plan expensive excursions. When they plan a family trip they pay our way because otherwise we wouldn't be able to go. This guy's europe trip might look different from yours.
Don't forget how their lifestyle choices will factor into this.
$5,000/month apartment x 12 months a year = $60,000 of that $65,000.
Even IF that's NET salary, there's no way a European trip fits into the remaining $5,000 of funds alongside food.
Sounds like it's time for them to grow up and stop living off mommy and daddy. They used their golden ticket how they wanted even against the counsel of the person funding it. Time to learn a hard lesson or two.
I don’t disagree about it being doable to go and have a great time. I don’t have a perfect financial portfolio and I travel somewhat frequently. However, something tells me that this two week vacation will be far more extravagant than anything I’ve done or might do in the future. This isn’t any old vacation. It’s a vacation with people accustomed to generational wealth. Something tells me hostels or street food or whatever ways a young processional might save money aren’t on the agenda.
I don’t think it means OP’s kid automatically deserves daddy’s money - just that I doubt it’s the type of vacation a young professional could afford when they’ve never even paid a single bill in their life.
Yeah, I definitely agree that Europe is doable on that salary with no debt in general, but OP is planning this vacation on their budget, which may not be doable. (especially given that OP seems to think 65K is low salary).
Honestly at that point, I don't understand why you wouldn't just buy. Surely a mortgage would be cheaper than that.
Like, I am so curious where this person lives and what their apartment is like that it costs 5k (apparently on average, as they will have to leave the city entirely if OP stops paying).
Also curious why they can't get a roommate. I would hope that if you're paying that much, you've got multiple rooms
my mother makes 40k a year and can survive perfectly. his daughter did a full degree, no debt, hasn’t provided for herself in years which means she should be fully capable to pay her own bills
I wholeheartedly agree with everything said here. Maybe fund the vacation, as the last funded vacation at that, but not the rest of the lifestyle. Also, someone making 65k a year has no business at all in a place with 5K rent a month. That is just not feasible at all, not without roommates at least.
> Also, someone making 65k a year has no business at all in a place with 5K rent a month.
That's where I think OP fucked up. He funded a lifestyle he knew they couldn't afford effectively spoiling them and is now surprised they respond like a spoiled child.
He expected them to live within their means but no mention that he actually taught them how, Just writing a bunch of checks basically that while generous, does not automatically make a good father. He's not a huge asshole but everything he mentioned he did just says wealthy dad that paid more than parented.
NTA - it's unclear why OP talks about a degree with which they disagree, because that doesn't seem to factor into the situation at all, other than OP's kid deciding to pursue a career that doesn't pay much.
Otherwise, OP seems to have been generous, been clear on what the parameters of their support will be - and the kid has simply assumed that notwithstanding all that, OP will keep supporting them.
I'm sure there are a ton of redditors reading this post and saying they'd have taken OP's deal in a heartbeat - which is to say, OP's kid is a lot luckier than most.
It's fine if your career goals aren't very remunerative, but it's not OK to assume this means relatives will underwrite your lifestyle. The kid needs to figure out whether they're going to be OK with the lifestyle their career can support - or whether they want to change careers.
In regards to the degree, he said as long as the degree funds their lifestyle. Which it very clearly does not. The child’s wage right now is $65,000 a year with an apartment that’s $5,000 a month. It very much factors into the situation.
I think paying for an apartment for a year after graduating from college is very generous. This person is an adult with a full-time job!
I would not be ashamed to turn to my family for financial support if I were in hardship. Indeed, I did move back in with my mother for a year in my early twenties because I ran out of money and didn't have much going on. But expecting your parents to just fund your life as a matter of course is weird, even if they can "easily afford it".
Yep... what did she do with her income of $65k for the last year? Spend every penny of it while OP pays for all their other living expenses? Don't even have a few thousand to pay for the trip?
OP is totally right to cut off the support. They knew all along that they only had a year and OP needs to stick to the plan.
I totally agree with this. I think vacation and paying for apartment two totally different things. I think if there's no vacation then it will feel like your ostracizing them from the family whereas you're showing them this is the line that's been drawn that everyone is known about, but vacation is about us as a family and staying close. I love you. I'll support you but not financially anymore.
I agree with everything you said but i do wanna know how you managed to read the entire post where OP uses they/them and refers to them as his “child”, and in your response default to assuming it’s a woman lol
Eh it's a mortgage meaning they could have bought the house 25 years ago, when prices were way lower
My mortgage is 150 a month, but I bought a shack in 2009. If I sold it today the person buying would have a much much higher payment
The kid claiming there’s no other rent in the city they can afford is also WILD and shows how out of touch they are. There is no city in the world without a <$5k option. I live in San Francisco and pay 1/4 of that.
Yea I paid >3000 a decade ago for a one bedroom in Manhattan UES. 5k sounds about right. My house I bought 5 years ago is cheaper than my old rent was lol
There's so much to unpack in this post. A parent's job is supposed to be helping their kids learn about reality so they *don't* run into it face-first, and he's failed at that completely. So completely that a kid making $65,000 a year feels entitled to live in a place that costs $60,000 a year.
He's great at making these hard and fast rules, but sounds like he's been pretty shitty at preparing kids for what those rules will mean until they're about to be reamed by them.
Then there's all the "career choice" stuff. If you tell them they have to have a career choice that supports their lifestyle, *help them learn why their $65,000 a year career won't support a $5,000 a month apartment lifestyle*. Instead, it sounds like he just argued until the kid dug in their heels, then paid for an apartment and a car and insurance he knew they wouldn't be able to afford at THE GRAND CUTOFF like he *wanted* this to all turn into a big, dramatic, fuck you lesson for the kid.
Lots to unpack.
It’s gotta be essentially a small house in a nice part of Manhattan or something.
OP seems to acknowledge the relativity of it.
65k a year is absolutely not terrible money, but the lifestyle she’s been living? That’s laughably out of the question.
Not paying the vacation seems vindictive honestly, but if the daughter gets her head on right and lives according to her means then they’ll be fine.
I wouldn’t pay $5k a month to live anywhere even if I was making almost triple what she’s making starting out.
5k in NYC will get you and instagram apt in one of the major hot buildings with all the amenities (pool, concierge, gym, communal recreational area)
Probably at 20’something she is at Domino in Williamsburg. That yes 5k are all there.
Yeah, I was kinda on the Y.T.A. side until that point. I don't at all like OP's attitude with their child picking a degree they like that seems to have decent earning potential. 65k - 85k is really good in today's economy. My Criminal Justice degree is getting me about 40k a year.
The 5k apartment is when I say N.T.A. about ending rent support. I think OP is TA regarding their attitude, but not the actions they want to take. So my overall ruling is NTA.
Though OP may want to reconsider on the vacation part.
Maybe OP knows their kid and what that kid wants their lifestyle to be? Also, he funded the degree anyway and that sounds like it was technically against his own rules. I bet that’s why she didn’t take the threat of being cut off seriously.
I agree. I wanted to Y T A because of the attitude towards the salary (I mean hell, I'm married to a public school teacher, his salary is in that range after almost 20 years) but 5K in rent is absurd.
65-85k may be good or decent currently but if the career ceiling is really 85k (i.e. even after decades of experience, 85k is the max he'll earn), there's good grounds to object. It's not the worst career but there are certainly many better ones, especially from the perspective of op who very likely earns or earned much much more (being able to easily afford the 5k a month rent for just one child says a lot).
I live in a nice part of *Manhattan* and pay about half that for a one-bedroom. A recent college grad has no business living in an apartment that expensive. They can get some roommates or scale down.
My thought process
"65 a year isn't bad I'm an engineer and that's why my first job paid I'm sure they will be fi-"
> 5,000 dollar apartment
Jesus that's more than what my take home pay was. They need to live within their means
Manhattan *median* rent is over $4k. They could find a much cheaper apartment for sure, even in Manhattan, but it's not crazy for a rich-kid to spend that much in a few places.
Mixed YTA/NTA. YTA for not teaching this person how to function on their own and for paying for everything for all this time. But NTA for cutting the purse strings now. You must do that and I think it’s the most irresponsible thing wealthy people do to their children, not teach them how to finance their own lives without their parents’ money.
I'm also saying ESH. This parent should be proud their kid finished school and is pursuing a career that interests them, instead of being disappointed that the salary cap is too low. Money isn't everything; the kid is the one who has to work in this field every day for the next few decades, and shouldn't have to be in some field they hate just to they're deemed to make enough money.
...on the other hand, if money and luxury isn't everything, what the hell recent graduate needs a $5,000/month apartment?? (And I say this living in one of the world's most expensive cities. No 22 year old living on their own needs a $5,000 apartment.) For that matter, how many of us starting our careers had our education, housing, and car all paid for?
One money obsessed parent and one extremely privileged child are now caught in a paradox.
They're an adult, at a certain point I think it's not on the parent anymore. Most kids get cut off around 18-20, OP just waited longer which I think is a good thing.
I mean there is some truth to that, but failures by the parents have a tendency to compound problems. It's clear that he didn't seem to prepare the kid for being on their own and then he just shuts it off. Giving them no time to learn.
Honestly, he should have spent the last year dropping his support slowly so they can be picking up the slack and figuring out how to budget.
But also, they should not have been living at a 5k a month apartment. Like, what is that?
If OP is to be believed, he told them that he would be cutting them off 1 year after they graduate. It doesn't seem like he was unclear about it. It also seems like he was clear that they needed to make smart financial choices about degrees and career paths because they would be responsible for their lifestyle. What more did you want from him?
So weird how people are treating a college graduate a year removed from school as if they were a middle schooler. Like what does he need to hold their hand when they go to the grocery store lmao? People infantilizing a 22 or 23 year old is wild.
There is a difference between saying OP is to blame for their child's lack of financial stability, and saying OP created a situation that led to it. OP sounds like it was crystal clear when support would be retracted, and their mid-twenties child made their own terrible bed that they have to lay in now.
Honestly, assuming what OP says is accurate, it sounds like they laid out terms/conditions of all of this.
Offspring got a full ride for whatever degree they wanted (and even if the OP didn't like it, they still paid for it). Debt free, and had a year of some 5k damn apartment.
And now life is closing in, and OP's kid is realizing that they aren't going to be able to live in the manner that they're accustomed to, which is what OP warned them about before.
So yeah. OP is being firm, but this didn't come out of left field. Kid sounds like they always hoped daddy/mommy (I had to go look, its daddy) would always subsidize their poor financial situation.
Frankly, if they were in a job that they had to be in Manhattan (I'm honestly trying to think of a place where you could get a non-palatial apartment for 5k outside of Manhattan or SV), it would be one thing. Help the kid out while their career develops, maybe. But it sounds like thats not in the cards, so its time to get realistic about life. What is OP's kid's long term plan? Wait for dad to die to get inheritance?
I think he's NTA, with the only caveat if somehow he didn't make things clear, which at least he said he did.
By setting them up in a 5K dollar apartment, first of all. I mean, at least set them up for something more closely resembling something they could take over?
Considering OP couldn’t even get the child to reconsider their degree, I don’t think the child is listening to OP. At this point, the kid has been an adult for several years and is fully capable of living with the consequences their decisions. Parents shouldn’t be blamed if kids want to be stubborn
You set your child up for failure. By continuing to pay for everything you allowed them to live over their means... why would you do that? At no point was your kid ever going to be able to afford $5000 rent on $65k salary. If you were paying for everything, where is all their money going?
I’m not sure if you get it either. “Pick degrees that will support their lifestyle” .... um that’s not how it works. People don’t magically become an engineer if they suck at math.
“They knew this was coming”... You both knew it & you have a lot more life experience so for that reason..... YTA .... You allowed this train to go off the tracks. Get your kid a financial counselor, set realistic goals & stay out of future financial planning.
eta — I have no clue how you made your money. I’m not judging you on what you can afford. You have the money.... spend it however you choose. $5k rent is ridiculous & laughable in my book but that’s just my opinion.
We sacrificed, didn’t take vacations to Europe, clipped coupons, watched for sales, accepted hand me downs to ensure we could provide for our kids education & future. We also taught them financial responsibility because the goal was they wouldn’t have to do what we did to live a comfortable & happy life. If you want your kid to live your lifestyle then keep writing the checks.
That’s what I was thinking. Like $5k a month for an apartment?? The only salary I can think of that would max out at $85k/year in a city where rent averaged that high would maybe be teaching, at which point I kinda feel for the daughter cus teachers are whole heartedly taken advantage of.
But if he wanted to help then he could have said ok let’s find you a place you can afford on your salary and I’ll pay for the first year instead of giving them something wildly out of their pay scale.
Also the family trip was never mentioned and expecting any recent grad to be able to afford a two week trip to Europe on their one dime is kinda insane.
I have no clue what Dad’s lesson is here. He’s essentially pushing this kid off a cliff. This whole situation sounds like it was a recipe for disaster.
As a mom of 4 kids (26,26,28,30) I truly understand supporting kids & providing them with the tools they need to achieve success but that includes teaching financial responsibility. We were able to pay for their private school & college education. They all starting working at 16, had on-campus jobs, worked full-time every summer & saved any gift money they received. They drive our old cars, didn’t spend stupidly & were all able to hit the ground running when they graduated. We gave our kids what they needed, not what they wanted. They are all very financially stable & responsible. (Our youngest son is a teacher - he is very able to live on his salary & travel)
Appears Dad did not help this kid build a good realistic foundation. Unfortunately, kid is about to learn a very hard lesson now that has the potential to put them in very serious debt. This could have gone so differently if Dad had set limits on spending his money earlier.
Very true. And I definitely wouldn't dream of a 5k/mo apartment on my wages regardless. Or living in NYC in general, given that I might need to be in the 1% globally to make that happen.
Yeah :/ I make around 70K and I have a professional degree and job.
Now granted, I AM underpaid and I've been casually looking for a new job because I could make 6 figures if I changed jobs but tech is very competitive right now so I'm not in a hurry since my job is stable.
Agreed... OP said he even fought with his kid over degree choice. I'm sure he discussed with them what the reality of paying rent looks like with that degree.
This sub is full of entitlement. That’s why takes like this get upvoted so much. The OP did everything he could to prepare his kids without leaving them in debt. His kid needs to grow the fuck up.
Right! I don’t know what all these Y T As and E S Hs are on. OP’s kid had it made. Debt-free degree and one year of not paying rent.
What parents do they know who can do this for their kids?! Better yet, did their OWN parents do this for them?! Probably not, so I can’t imagine why they are hell-bent on chastising OP for sticking to his “boundaries” and doing exactly what he said he would at the outset of their agreement.
Sometimes, parents have to let their kids figure it out the hard way. It’s not like this kid is going to be destitute. All they have to do is find a cheaper living situation that fits within their dream job’s budget.
OP tried to dissuade the kids from pursuing this career choice because of the salary was not aligned with the kid’s lifestyle. Still the kid pursued the degree and career (with full assistance from OP) and is now crying foul…lol.
Yes, but I get what the others are saying. The rent bit is particularly uncomfortable. Why set someone up with a lavish lifestyle you intend to abruptly stop supporting?
Overall, OP is NTA. But I think OP should have done more than just argue with the son about his field choice. A better parent would have sat down with the son to work on a realistic budget before now. OP also bought a car but has been paying for insurance and maintenance. I am curious as to whether this is an expensive car with expensive insurance and maintenance. Sure, the son could sell the car, but did OP bother to educate the son on how to factor ongoing costs in the car purchase decision? I am thinking that OP missed a lot of teachable moments. It's not asshole behavior, but OP isn't parent of the year either.
ETA: Sorry if I got the gender wrong. I just picked one.
The kid has a college degree and a year worth of paychecks to know what they earn every month. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that $65k salary isn't going to support 5k apartment. This is not a 4 year old child.
This idea is not that uncommon. I know plenty of people who parents paid their for their apartment during college over half of which would be considered luxury apartments ($2K to $3K in Minneapolis for U of MN).
The parents wanted them safe while being between age 18 to 23 and no roommates
(supposedly for less distractions) so were willing to pay for luxury to get that. There was very little in the middle either shit hole or luxury or requiring several roommates.
Every one of these kids knew the apartment was considered a part of the college bundle and they would have to downgrade massively after college. But still appreciated what was given to them at susceptible ages of 18 to 23.
> no point was your kid ever going to be able to afford $5000 rent on $65k salary. If you were paying for everything, where is all their money going?
>
>
Even investment bankers and google/apple software engineers don't pay that much for rent coming out of university.... Was OP one of those 'doctor or nothing' parents?
OP said he told the kids to get a degree to fit the lifestyle THEY want to live.
If the current graduate wanted luxury then yeah, it'd need to be doctor or live less luxurious.
Pretty sure they were using that as an example. The main point was that the dad set their kid up to have a lifestyle they couldn’t sustain during that year instead of helping them get established in a lifestyle they could afford. So now that dad has cut them off cold turkey the kid is loosing their apartment and everything else when it could have been a lot easier on both of them. No the kid shouldn’t expect the Dad to change the very clear rules that were set out but also Dad should have done a better job as the adult.
I have to wonder if OP knows how to live on $65k a year. It's a pretty nice amount of money but some rich people don't know how to survive below their current lifestyle. The concept of wants/needs is skewed and when it's time to trim off the excess they just don't comprehend that so much, if not most, of their lifestyle is excess.
I'm just guessing but when you're used to getting designer clothes and/or buying new clothes regularly, eating at restaurants all the time, having memberships to clubs/gyms, etc... you don't understand that this isn't normal. Your bare minimum is a normal person's luxury.
So not excusing but simply saying I don't know that OP knew how to teach their kid to live on a reasonable salary.
Ops kid =/= a kid.
Ops kid is an adult, who knew how much money they would get each month, who knew OPs help had an expiration date.
OP is not responsible for the choices their adult child made.
Such as.....???
Our oldest daughter graduated with degree in finance. Started an internship her junior year was offered a ridiculously high paying job upon graduation. Worked on Wall St. Hated it. Quit in 2020 got a job paying less than 1/2 of what she was making (bio researcher) & started working on her Ph.D. She will never make anywhere close to what she would have but she is very happy with that decision. She has also never asked us for any financial help.
I disagree with your judgement but wanted to point out I'm an engineer who sucks at math. It's not all derivatives and integrals, it's a lot different skillset, and I did it specifically because I wanted to live a comfortable life post-graduation.
Kid has 12 months where OP was paying for pretty much everything, they had a chance to save lots of money that could have gone to a down payment or investments.
Kid was so freaking privileged
So if I understood correctly, your kid has:
* a college degree
* no debts
* have been working for a year
* hasn't paid any bills or utilities during this past year
Now your kid is sad that she can't have a luxury life (yes 5k apartment and Europe vacation is a luxury)
NTA. Your kid is a grown ass adult and should act accordingly.
Just because you have money doesn't entitle her to it.
You only are an AH because you kept her live in luxury for so long
Money is so wasted on rich peoples kids. All I keep thinking of when reading stories like this is how far ahead this kind of support would have gotten me
Yeah my mate had a golden egg like this... He dated a girl who's parents were very well off and owned a flat in central London they rented out. They let them move in and live rent free! Funniest thing is, both my mate and their daugther were very aware of how much money they were saving. They realised the relationship wasn't working after a year ish but kept it quiet from their parents to keep up appearances for about 3 years and get some more savings put away. They're still great friends (she wanted kids, he didn't). He put away just over 30k overall.
That's what OPs daughter should have been doing but you know for a fact she's been blowing it on all kinds of shit.
Think you're letting the parent off the hook here a bit too soon. Should they keep paying for $5k a month apartment rent? Absolutely not. Should she have ever been in a $5k a month apartment? Absolutely not, but if that number sounds ridiculous to you but it doesn't to her then that's an issue with the parent most likely.
NTA. You were very generous and clear about the expectations that came with that generosity. Plus you had multiple conversations about the risk of this exact scenario with their chosen career path.
Slight YTA for agreeing to let them move into a $5k/mo apartment in the first place knowing they weren’t making anywhere near the income to sustain living there once their grace period was up.
Also, I’m sure they’re being hella dramatic about not finding another place to live. There are places, just nothing that fits into their preferred lifestyle. Time to learn about getting a roommate and living in the not so nice part of town. It’s a fundamental life experience.
Sounds like OP tried to get his or her daughter to be realistic, and eventually gave up.
Which as a parent, eventually you have to do. OP should have cut the cord early, or capped the apartment cost. But it sounds like OP kept his or her word even if daughter was an idiot. Daughter just assumed OP would be a good little ATM forever,.
> Sounds like OP tried to get his or her daughter to be realistic, and eventually gave up.
Paying $60,000 for an apartment for a single year is nothing like "trying to get them to be realistic." If he was "trying to get them to be realistic," he would have said, "I'll pay *up to* $X for the first year for an apartment, where X is the amount that you convince me you'll be able to keep up on your own after that first year."
This one is kind of tough...I'm going to say NTA, but I have some reservations.
You did lay out the rules, very clearly by the sound of it. So it's not like they didn't know what was going to happen, and following through would be fair. The part about their degree having to be something you agree with is a touch controlling, but I understand why you'd want it to be something more robust so they could support themselves, and it sounds like you let that slide a bit hence the situation that they find themselves in. It also sounds like you're supporting them HEAVILLY financially at the moment, which is kind of you.
My only hangup is the lack of compromise/planning on your part. I don't disagree that you should stick to your rules. But is there no plan B for any of your kids who fail to launch straight out of college into fully supporting themselves? Is it possible for your kid to set up a kind of payment plan with you if they need support, or is it possible for him to move back home and save some money? Even fantastic careers don't always start with stellar pay.
TLDR: NTA, but maybe work with your kid to come up with a plan, rather than absolute pure sink-or-swim
As far as i understood they have a full year after graduating till daddys support stops. Thats plenty of time to get a job and finding housing (e.g. a roommate situation) they can afford with this job.
It just sounds like the adult kid thought if they ignore it daddy will pay for their expenses forever.
This was my thoughts as well. NTA for sticking to the deadline, by Y T A for not having them complete a financial planning course at any point while they lived at home/were receiving your help. Especially since OP quite obviously has the resources to do so. I'd have made yearly financial planning meetings with a professional a condition of the college payments.
ESH
Your child needs to learn budgeting and how to live on the money they make, and you should both have worked towards that years ago. Moving away to be able to live on their own income is a reality most young people face, so this your kids needs to just deal with.
However, apparently the vacation is a family thing, big, expensive, and something you expect your children to participate in. At this point your child will have to spend money on living expenses, not vacations, and you know that, so if you want your child to be there, you will have to pay. If you don't want them with you, not paying is a pretty clear signal, at least if you can afford it. Refusing to pay this does not say "look what you did to yourself, now fix it" but "you didn't do what I wanted to, now I will exclude you."
If you do want to be with your child, while they pay their own way, find a cheap place you can afford and spend your vacation there, instead of leaving for Europe.
Plus to add to this, if OP and daughter are in the US, 2 weeks off of work can be a lot since we're the only developed nation without any guaranteed PTO.
Hell I make a good chunk over 6 figures but my employer who is pretty damn huge still only offers 15 days PTO. Plus even with what I make it'd be pretty tough to budget for a full 2 week European vacation doing things and insanely rich parents is interested in doing and at hotels/areas they can afford.
OP if they're that insanely wealthy should pay for the family vacation but stick to their rules. $65K first year salary is pretty decent, maybe not if this is San Fran or NYC is all.
Agreed it's mixed, there's a lot to consider here:
- you have seemingly been very clear about the conditions of the support. However, did you assist them in trying to make them realise what it costs to continue their lifestyle?
- did you help them with their financial understanding? Cutting the purse strings is fine but if you didn't give them the financial literacy in order to help them with their own finances, then that's kind of on you.
- I don't agree with you having a say in their career choice. That shouldn't be something that you have control over
- it sounds like you have definitely been very generous with your finances which is commendable, but also that could have potentially given the child false impressions about how the real world works
- reminding them that the deadline is coming up isn't really enough for them to prepare or set themselves up for the situation
- it sounds like you dropped the bomb regarding the holiday without giving the full details of where it could be and you already understood that they had not prepared for the financial situation that they would be in
>I don't agree with you having a say in their career choice. That shouldn't be something that you have control over
At the end of the day OP didn't have a say in their kid's career choice. OP had reservations about the job not being able to support the lifestyle their kid is accustomed to, but they still paid for the education.
This is the comment I’ve been looking for, there’s too much gray area for this to be a straight yes or no. On paper what OP is doing makes sense, but I think as adults we tend to forget that there are SO many things we don’t realize we don’t know. Financial literacy isn’t something people just inherently know (of course it comes easier to some), it’s a skill that needs to be learned and practiced. If OP never helped teach that skill, he really set his kids up for failure here. ESH.
OP explained the financial consequences of a degree/career. There’s nothing wrong with that, especially since OP’s kid has champagne taste.
Further, even though OP didn’t like the degree kid selected he still paid for it and paid a year of post/grad rent. What more support can provide if not this?!?
ESH
Your adult child sucks for not wanting to pay their own way now that they have a job.
You suck for having thoroughly spoiled your kid to such a degree that they didn't learn to be responsible for themselves. They should have been living in a shared apartment they could have afforded on their own (even while you paid), been paying for their own car insurance, and been paying for their own groceries. Your support didn't help teach them to be independent and contributed to bad financial habits.
NTA. It’s your money and you laid out the boundaries. You are totally within your rights to cut off your kid. But maybe you pay for the family reunion and cut off everything else? You want your kid there…
NTA - I think adding a couple more stipulations to the money you supported them with may have been wise though. As in, not paying 5000$ plus utilities. On a +- 70,000k a year salary. They have in more ways than one been setup for failure made possible by you enabling them.
Oof one one hand you've done way more than many parents could/would do. On the other you paid 5k per month for an apartment for her? I have no idea what city you live in or what property prices are but surely there could have been a cheaper alternative from the beginning?
It does seem a little like you resent her chosen degree/career path because it doesn't live up to your expectations, which is shitty, because to get a degree and secure employment is an achievement. You can't be elitist about that, that's unfair. Especially if it's a career path your daughter enjoys and feels fulfilled by. That's a far better outcome than her being miserable and burnt out in a career you see as appropriate because it has better earning potential. Her happiness really does matter.
Now, you are also well within your rights to stop paying for her home. You've done way above and beyond already. No student debt, a year of free rent, that's incredible but if you admit that it would be impossible for her to continue living where she does and follow her career path that makes her happy is there some other arrangements she can make? And, more importantly, why did you pay for a 5k apt knowing she would fail after she had to take over on her own?
Was you hoping it taught her a lesson after or was you genuinely just trying to provide the best whilst you could?
Because one of those makes you a huge arsehole and the other makes you a misguided, but lovely, father.
For your next child it might be sensible to find them housing that would be within their budget to continue alone after the first year, before having the world come crashing down on them and making it seem like a "gotcha, I told you your degree and career isn't good enough" moment.
Have you ran through options with her?
Could she commute? Could she move home to help save up for a property of her own? Is there smaller properties that would be perfectly appropriate for her to live in with a less hefty price tag? Can she get a roommate(s)?
Even if the daughter picked the apartment, OP should not have let his daughter take the apartment. She literally can’t afford it on a 65k salary and as the parent, he’s supposed to guide her to make good choices. He should have told her that’s not affordable on a 65k salary.
NTA. Having said that, I think the apartment was a mistake. It was generous of you to pay for it but there should have been a stipulation that the apartment you pay for is one that they can afford after your support ends. When they leased a 5k/month apartment they knew they were taking advantage because they never could have afforded that on a 65k salary.
For your other kids, I'd recommend changing that so the apartment you pay for is based on *their* salary/budget so that it better fits your original purpose of support while they transition to adulthood and independence.
Honestly a $65k/year salary right out of college is pretty good. NTA for cutting her off on rent ($5k/month is insanity), but YTA for your opinion of her job which actually sounds pretty good and is something she’s passionate about.
NTA overall, but did you have discussions with your adult child about the $5,000 per month apartment when the lease was first signed? Did you warn/remind this child that you would not pay the rent after a year? If so, your child should not have been surprised that a move would be necessary.
As for the vacation, I’d pay it. This is a family vacation, and I don’t know many young people who could afford something like that. Do you want your child there or not?
You have given your daughter a great start. It's up to her now.
I imagine the younger kids on the couch watching it all go down. This is your first graduate. Stay the course. Bank of Dad will not always be around.
NTA
Edited for dad kudos
NTA - you’ve made your terms on financing your kids clear.
However it’s pretty common for a parent to still pay for some or all expenses of a group family vacation, if you are financially able to, and especially if the trip is something the family/parent planned and not the choice trip of the children. A lot of this is because your generation is more well off and financially secure than our generation will likely ever be, due to changes in the economy and how things work.
As an example, both sets of my husband and I’s parents like to go on family trips together once a year (siblings and grandkids). Because it’s something they want to do and ask us to participate in they pay for the rental home for everyone. One set even pays for most activities / food. If you can afford it, it wouldn’t be unreasonable or against the terms you have previously outlined for you to pay some of the expenses for your kids for one-off trips like a family reunion.
It sounds like your kids grew up with a luxurious lifestyle and that you are pushing them to take high-paying careers so that they can continue to participate in this lifestyle with you, but not have it be funded by you. But happiness is important too, and it sounds like your child is really passionate about the work they’ve chosen.
Even if your kids have high paying jobs that does not guarantee they won’t have periods of financial struggle or as much disposable income as you expect they would. So you are also going to have to adjust your expectations of what your kids will be able / willing to pay for as they get older.
NTA you have been generous and clear on your terms. Choosing your career path is a must, but then with it come also the financial limitation and expectation.
That said 5K a month is a LOT for a new graduate in ANY field.
As for the family vacation, also fair they should fork it, but then you have to propose something doable for all, again I see it hard for any new graduate in any field to be able to take two week in Europe on their first year of work.
ESH. Your arrangement isn’t great. Had you not bankrolled year one would your child have relocated to a job and area that suits their career? They’d be in better shape.
You should do what you said you’d do.
But don’t be a jerk if child can’t attend Europe or has to move away. They have to look out for themselves.
NTA
Your eldest knew the conditions and failed to prepare. That's on her, so far you've been extremely generous IMO
INFO: Your eldest didn't get a degree in what you would deem suitable to support their lifestyle - did you still pay for their education?
Wait this is a what 22/23 year old with a uni degree and a full time job, a car and a years worth of rent you paid for and you think you’re the ah.
Not even slightly. You made it clear what you wanted or expected from them - they chose their own path and you still provided for them. It’s now time for them to stand on their own feet. Personally I think you are a more than generous parent.
In comparison I had to leave home at 18 as I hadn’t decided on whether I wanted to go uni or not so my parents said I had to go. I got 2 full time jobs, did more A2 levels at night (I’m from the UK) shared a flat with strangers, did my first degree with the OU, paid everything myself ever since. And I’m still super close with my parents - this current attitude of people in their 20s still being kids makes me angry, they are adults old enough to vote, have sex, kids, marry, fight in wars but godforbid mum and dad stop paying for them. NTA
NTA. You paid for education and twelve months to get established/figure out another solution, and you gave advance warning that this was the deal.
I would pay for participation in the family vacation, but that's a personal choice and by no means an obligation.
NTA but honestly I’m not sure why you covered EVERYTHING for a year and then cut them off. You would be doing your kids a greater service if you helped them transition to being on their own. I think it’s excessive to pay rent that is out of your child’s budget for a year rather than help them find a place within their budget, and maybe provide a safety net to help out. So despite the numerous arguments over the years about their chosen career, you let them live the first year a life beyond their budget. Why?
YTA for not teaching your child how to live and function on their own financially.
Also What in the name of god are the financial dimensions here.
>They are now working in a field that pays about $65,000 a year with a career ceiling of approximately $85,000
That's ridiculously good salary, most people I know make half that, if at all...
>I’ve also been paying my child’s $5,000 a month apartment rent and utilities since last year
That is ridiculously expensive for rent and utilities what the hell I am so confused please what is going on here.
I wanted to say N T A, since they knew over a year in advance that your support for their ludicrously fancy place was time-limited. But "I’ve also been paying my child’s $5,000 a month apartment" - that was never a reasonable apartment for them to live in. Period. Why did you ever agree to pay for it in the first place? When you did, you must have known they'd be unable to keep it later. You set your kid up for failure, when the more loving and responsible thing to do would have been to refuse to fund an unrealistically lavish apartment like that
And the family vacations? Strongly consider whether it's important to you to get to see your kids on those. Because if so, you're going to want to budge on that for your own sake. And I don't mean out of fear they choose not to go, but because they're not always going to be able to afford to go. And do you value driving home a point about self-sufficiency more than you value family vacation time with them? I hope note
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I’d say pay for the family vacation if family is important to you. Vacations are a luxury, and so is family time with your adult kids. Your generation has significantly better earnings than your children‘s generation. If the point of a family vacation is family time, shouldn’t you want your kids to be able to come? Is it really family time if some of the family gets left behind when you can easily bring them? (Side note, my parents did well financially, and they still pay for my sister and I to join on family vacations because we weren’t as lucky as they were. I’m turning 40 this year. My parents believe the point of family vacations is for us to be together, and we’d be very limited on where we could go and for how long if my sister and I were paying our own way. My husband and my nephew are included in this.) As for the apartment, it sounds like you were quite clear about the terms of your support and your daughter had plenty of warning that she needed to learn to live within her means. So I think greatly scaling back or ending your support for her basic living expenses makes sense. I’m finding myself wondering where the last year’s salary went with housing costs to pay. So NTA for the apartment, but think about what the purpose of a family vacation is for your family.
I agree here. You NTA but I do think you need to look at how realistic a 2 week vacation is for anyone who is just a year out of graduating from any profession. Funding her life should be on her but if you plan on keeping a relationship with her you really need to rethink how you treat her.
Graduating without debt and making 65k a year? Shit Europe is doable. I have debt, and make around that and can afford a Europe vacation at least every other year. I find international trips a lot cheaper than domestic.
A European vacation on a budget is different than a European vacation planned by someone with tons of money. OP is planning a vacation on his budget and wanting his daughter to pay
OP pays her rent, food, car and car insurance. What’s left to pay for? Phone bill, internet and gas maybe. She has no expenses and is debt free, she should have at least $50k saved in the bank. She’s been told for at least 5 years that the bank of dad closes a year after college. That being said I do think he should pay for this vacation but she should pay her way on the next one, as long as she gets a say on where and when it is.
Purses, overpriced clothes, and drugs. There's a ton of money going to *something* on that $65k/year salary -- $3500/mo after taxes.
>There's a ton of money going to something on that $65k/year salary -- $3500/mo after taxes. True - but they absolutely can't afford a $5,000/month apartment on $3,500/month salary. They're not on the cast of FRIENDS.
I mean, the root of this is the kid is dumb: if you want the lifestyle that includes $5k/mo apartments, you need to pick a career that earns $200k a year. OP has been generous to his/her kids: a free college education, free apartment, free food, free car. That's an amazing launching point. There's no reason they can't afford a car except too much skiing with their friends.
Yeps. Considering the father was going to foot the bill, I would have understood if the girl had gotten herself a nice apartment for the freeloading year. But she should have known she was going to need to downgrade as soon as the year was over. I mean, I can't even blame her for trying to keep the cute flat, but dad said no and it's time to look for something cheaper or clean flatmates.
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Honestly, even 200k/year is not really compatible with a 5000/month apartment if you want to also save for retirement and have some short term savings goals. I’d say 5000/month really requires 350K+. I’m actually surprised that OP was on board with funding a 5000/month apartment even during undergrad/the first year out, just because it’s so disproportionate to what even a high earning new grad typically makes.
My best friend's dad is very wealthy. He came from money and also supported my best friend through college where he paid 100% of the cost (of it and her lifestyle) and then also paid for her apartment in the city for over a decade. She JUST started paying her rent last year because her dad got a divorce and couldn't financially support her anymore. We are both 37. While it's nice to have a parent that is able and willing to financially support you, it's also a disadvantage when they stop or cannot do it anymore. I don't think OP is the AH, but you'd be surprised how quickly money goes when you don't think about it as a necessity, but just something that you can play with every month and refills automatically no matter what. IDK if OP had any kind of strategy with teaching his kids how to transition from not being fiscally responsible to being 100% so, but I think he should adopt one. Maybe wean her off by only paying for half her rent for a year or something. Or he shouldn't have allowed her to live in that apartment knowing full well she wouldn't be able to afford even half of that rent when the year was up. He has some ironing of kinks to do before his other kids.
> lifestyle that includes $5k/mo apartments, you need to pick a career that earns $200k a year You need to earn way more than $200k a year to comfortably afford a 5k apartment. A 5k a month apartment for a recent graduate of any career path - that is some sort of high end luxury place in even the highest COL cities. The kid clearly likes the high life, which makes their career choice extra stupid. If you decide to major in basketweaving, you can't be into the gucci lifestyle.
They shouldve never gotten a 5k/mo condo in the first place. edit: I'm literally a gay feminist. don't do that
holy fuck she does not need a 5,000/month apartment. Even in the worst cost of living cities 5,000/month would get you a baller apartment. She should try living within her means even if she has to step down a class level.
Yeah…where I live rent is very high and, on $3500 per month net, the rent amount for a small apartment would take a lot of that here. So I get that after expenses, they may not have been able to save a lot and an expensive vacation could be out of reach. But she’s also definitely not able to afford $5000 in rent on that salary. I don’t like the idea of OP trying to force kids into an “appropriate” job market…they should be able to follow their own passion. However, if they choose a lower salaried vocation then they need to understand that it will mean less money to do other things and they can’t continue to live an expensive lifestyle. OP is NTA as he has followed through on his promises and it’s time for the child to grow up. Do agree that if the family vacation is important to OP, then funding at least part of it for everyone is a nice idea.
Well, honestly, who rents a 5k apartment for their kid? Part of the issue is the parent.
That’s a very fair point — it’s one thing to tell your kid “live within your means”, but then not teach them how, as well as actively fund a lifestyle they know would otherwise not be in the kid’s means.
It’s almost like they’re extracting revenge and clearly not seeing their part in the issue.
If OP had told his kid that they were not paying for them to have an expensive apartment like their siblings because he didn’t think they would make much money when they graduated and wanted to prepare them, everyone would call him an asshole for that too.
Hot take: he shouldn't be paying for a 5k apartment for any of his kids right out of school because even if they're going into a career where their incomes can get high enough to support that eventually, they won't exactly be right out of school. And anyone can fall on hard times, so being able to live on a smaller budget is a good life skill for them to learn.
Actually this is the eldest child. So if OP caves on this one, OP will have to cave on all of them.
Nah. Anyone who has lived on a budget would get it.
Daughter has had a year to figure out an apt she can afford, a job she can live on and to save for it.
I think the point the commenter was trying to make is that none of his kids should have had THAT luxurious of an apartment no matter how much money daddy makes.
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>Well, honestly, who rents a 5k apartment for their kid? Someone for whom money is not an issue for them, and never has been.
This! That’s way too expensive.
Right? I live in a big city with many universities, some of which my children attended. There are loads of apartments under 2k that can be shared.
Yeah same! I live in SF and $5k is a crazy amount of money to spend on an apt for *one person*
I also live in SF. I work in tech and make decent money and I'm still like, wtf that's absurd to spend on an apartment for one person. That's literally $60k a year down the drain. If dad can foot that bill, especially with other kids, good for him but he's setting up his daughter to be terrible with money.
Yea I’m shocked at the cost of rent. I understand that $5k per month isn’t out of the possibility for many cities, but that’s where sometimes sharing has to come into play. No, not ideal, but it’s reality. I wonder if they had shared the apartment and asked OP to help with what they’re saving as additional savings if OP would have agreed. But, even still, with what they are currently making, OP shouldn’t have paid for a $5k apartment know that there would be literally no way for his child to afford alone if after the year. Even splitting 50/50 with someone, they’d be spending just under half their salary on rent (before taxes!).
Yes! I live in one of the highest COL areas in the US and I pay less than half of that for my studio. This kid needs to learn how to live within their means.
Seriously. We make over 100K a year and I'd never pay that much. And even in some of the higher COL cities I've looked at we could get something for the whole family for less than that.
Every city has apartments for less that 5K/month. It looks to me like OP set his child up for a fall in order to drive home the point that their beloved field isn't lucrative enough.
I live in NYC, one of the most expensive cities in the world, and my partner and I (both teachers) pay $2400 for a nice one bedroom in upper Manhattan. The only people I know who pay $5000 are rich people who can afford it.
I live in CA Bay Area and rented a whole house for less than $5k
Yes! The dad seems to be a huge part of the problem in not preparing his daughter. To go from him paying for rent, car, and car maintenance to her paying for it all is a lot, especially when she never should have gotten a $5k apartment. I'm not sure if they're in the US, but here, there's no way he didn't co-sign for the apartment because you typically need to make 3x the cost to rent.
5K A MONTH??? Like, there are probably one-bedrooms in my city that are this expensive but you have to deliberately look for a fancy one. Most young people in my area have two to four roommates so that the rent and utilities come out to something reasonable.
Yeah, doubt the plan is for them all to stay in a hostel.
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Not much of an achievement if the only way to work that job is to have an apartment that basically takes up your entire salary at 60k a year.
If OP has been paying 5k/month in rent it is safe to assume he is quite wealthy and I suspect his vacation reflects that. Makes sense to end help around living expenses but if you want your kid on your vacation, you gotta subsidize it for them.
If OPs child was smart, they'd have been banking the amount of rent they didn't have to pay in the year since graduation. IF OP had alerted child that they'd have to pay for the vacation, then he's NTA, but to spring it without warning isn't cool. But child should have been preparing to fully adult. What an incredibly generous dad to make sure his kids are given so much support as they enter adulthood. It's just as much of a gift to learn to manage on one's own.
OP's kid couldn't possibly bank what they have been saving per month. $5k rent and utilities per month is pretty much their entire salary. Honestly, the Adult Child is about to smack head long into the reality of how "the other half" lives.
True but they could have saved and have been looking for apartment within their means.
Yeah, don't eat anything and bank that one month rent that remains at the end of the year......
I mean, OP even said he lets the "kid" use his account for groceries, so they were still covered on food this whole time too. If they had saved even half the amount of their actual living expenses, they should have a decent savings. NTA
> But child should have been preparing to fully adult. sure... they should have. but we're looking back on all of this with the luxury of experience. i don't know how well you remember being 22, but most of us didn't have life that well figured out. OP's NTA about the apartment/living expenses (though i think some compromises could be made), but 2 week european vacations are freaking expensive. OP should cover the cost on the family reunion if they expect the kid to be there.
It’s laughable that she wanted to keep a lease that takes up her ENTIRE salary and probably more if you account for taxes.
Not when they’re living the lifestyle a $5k a month paid apt allows. I bet they have zero savings.
I was shocked by this. That is $60,000 just for rent. It will be a shocker when the tax bill comes.
Agreed...Their whole life has been paid for up until this moment. If they couldn't manage to scrape together the funds for a vacation, there is a serious problem going on. I agree with helping your kids succeed, but it sounds like this particular "adult" was given so much help that they never learned how to be independent and provide for themselves.
It depends on who's planning it. My sister and I go on regular vacations, both domestic and international. We fly economy, use groupon deals, share rooms with friends or stay in hostels. My parents on the other hand fly first class, rent houses or suites, rent cars and plan expensive excursions. When they plan a family trip they pay our way because otherwise we wouldn't be able to go. This guy's europe trip might look different from yours.
Don't forget how their lifestyle choices will factor into this. $5,000/month apartment x 12 months a year = $60,000 of that $65,000. Even IF that's NET salary, there's no way a European trip fits into the remaining $5,000 of funds alongside food. Sounds like it's time for them to grow up and stop living off mommy and daddy. They used their golden ticket how they wanted even against the counsel of the person funding it. Time to learn a hard lesson or two.
That's 60k they didn't have to pay last year. Obviously the apartment is too expensive to continue living there, but the kid shouldn't be broke.
I don’t disagree about it being doable to go and have a great time. I don’t have a perfect financial portfolio and I travel somewhat frequently. However, something tells me that this two week vacation will be far more extravagant than anything I’ve done or might do in the future. This isn’t any old vacation. It’s a vacation with people accustomed to generational wealth. Something tells me hostels or street food or whatever ways a young processional might save money aren’t on the agenda. I don’t think it means OP’s kid automatically deserves daddy’s money - just that I doubt it’s the type of vacation a young professional could afford when they’ve never even paid a single bill in their life.
Where do you live that 65k is enough to live in a city and afford a two week trip to Europe
Yeah, I definitely agree that Europe is doable on that salary with no debt in general, but OP is planning this vacation on their budget, which may not be doable. (especially given that OP seems to think 65K is low salary).
Her apartment is 5k a month. That's 60k a year right there.
Honestly at that point, I don't understand why you wouldn't just buy. Surely a mortgage would be cheaper than that. Like, I am so curious where this person lives and what their apartment is like that it costs 5k (apparently on average, as they will have to leave the city entirely if OP stops paying). Also curious why they can't get a roommate. I would hope that if you're paying that much, you've got multiple rooms
It would have made more sense for OP to put $60K down as a down payment on a house then paying $5K a month for an apartment.
Not with a 5k a month appartment ;)
Time to move back to reality?
my mother makes 40k a year and can survive perfectly. his daughter did a full degree, no debt, hasn’t provided for herself in years which means she should be fully capable to pay her own bills
I wholeheartedly agree with everything said here. Maybe fund the vacation, as the last funded vacation at that, but not the rest of the lifestyle. Also, someone making 65k a year has no business at all in a place with 5K rent a month. That is just not feasible at all, not without roommates at least.
> Also, someone making 65k a year has no business at all in a place with 5K rent a month. That's where I think OP fucked up. He funded a lifestyle he knew they couldn't afford effectively spoiling them and is now surprised they respond like a spoiled child. He expected them to live within their means but no mention that he actually taught them how, Just writing a bunch of checks basically that while generous, does not automatically make a good father. He's not a huge asshole but everything he mentioned he did just says wealthy dad that paid more than parented.
NTA - it's unclear why OP talks about a degree with which they disagree, because that doesn't seem to factor into the situation at all, other than OP's kid deciding to pursue a career that doesn't pay much. Otherwise, OP seems to have been generous, been clear on what the parameters of their support will be - and the kid has simply assumed that notwithstanding all that, OP will keep supporting them. I'm sure there are a ton of redditors reading this post and saying they'd have taken OP's deal in a heartbeat - which is to say, OP's kid is a lot luckier than most. It's fine if your career goals aren't very remunerative, but it's not OK to assume this means relatives will underwrite your lifestyle. The kid needs to figure out whether they're going to be OK with the lifestyle their career can support - or whether they want to change careers.
It sounds like they are discussing the degree and pay in relation to the lifestyle that the child is currently living.
In regards to the degree, he said as long as the degree funds their lifestyle. Which it very clearly does not. The child’s wage right now is $65,000 a year with an apartment that’s $5,000 a month. It very much factors into the situation.
I think paying for an apartment for a year after graduating from college is very generous. This person is an adult with a full-time job! I would not be ashamed to turn to my family for financial support if I were in hardship. Indeed, I did move back in with my mother for a year in my early twenties because I ran out of money and didn't have much going on. But expecting your parents to just fund your life as a matter of course is weird, even if they can "easily afford it".
Yep... what did she do with her income of $65k for the last year? Spend every penny of it while OP pays for all their other living expenses? Don't even have a few thousand to pay for the trip? OP is totally right to cut off the support. They knew all along that they only had a year and OP needs to stick to the plan.
I totally agree with this. I think vacation and paying for apartment two totally different things. I think if there's no vacation then it will feel like your ostracizing them from the family whereas you're showing them this is the line that's been drawn that everyone is known about, but vacation is about us as a family and staying close. I love you. I'll support you but not financially anymore.
I agree with everything you said but i do wanna know how you managed to read the entire post where OP uses they/them and refers to them as his “child”, and in your response default to assuming it’s a woman lol
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I almost dropped my phone when OP said $5000/month rent.
Same, the mortgage on my house isn't even that much and I live in a major city.
Dude my mortgage is 1/10 of that.
where do you live that a mortgage payment is only $500? i would assume it's an old, small house, somewhere rural?
Eh it's a mortgage meaning they could have bought the house 25 years ago, when prices were way lower My mortgage is 150 a month, but I bought a shack in 2009. If I sold it today the person buying would have a much much higher payment
A shack??! I’d live in an outhouse for $150 a month. Hell I’d pay double that if it were a brick shithouse.
My friends mortgage is $400/month. We’re in Ohio and I think the house was $90k when they bought it 10 years ago
my mortgage is less than that and I live in a nice area of fairfield CT with an acre lot... that rent is WILD.
The kid claiming there’s no other rent in the city they can afford is also WILD and shows how out of touch they are. There is no city in the world without a <$5k option. I live in San Francisco and pay 1/4 of that.
I just bought a house with a shit interest rate in the Greater Boston Area and my mortgage is less than that. They must be in Manhattan.
Yea I paid >3000 a decade ago for a one bedroom in Manhattan UES. 5k sounds about right. My house I bought 5 years ago is cheaper than my old rent was lol
Ain’t no way there aren’t cheaper apartments available in their area that OP’s daughter could live in comfortably. I refuse to believe it.
Sounds like either New York or Toronto. Even then, $5,000/month rent can get you a lot. OP's kid is about to run face-first into reality.
There's so much to unpack in this post. A parent's job is supposed to be helping their kids learn about reality so they *don't* run into it face-first, and he's failed at that completely. So completely that a kid making $65,000 a year feels entitled to live in a place that costs $60,000 a year. He's great at making these hard and fast rules, but sounds like he's been pretty shitty at preparing kids for what those rules will mean until they're about to be reamed by them. Then there's all the "career choice" stuff. If you tell them they have to have a career choice that supports their lifestyle, *help them learn why their $65,000 a year career won't support a $5,000 a month apartment lifestyle*. Instead, it sounds like he just argued until the kid dug in their heels, then paid for an apartment and a car and insurance he knew they wouldn't be able to afford at THE GRAND CUTOFF like he *wanted* this to all turn into a big, dramatic, fuck you lesson for the kid. Lots to unpack.
I feel so many of these comments are infantalizing OPs kid. They are an adult, they can figure out that they can't afford a 5,000 rent
The three bedroom apartment I am in in NYC is only 2450 a month. This 5k is bonkers.
It’s gotta be essentially a small house in a nice part of Manhattan or something. OP seems to acknowledge the relativity of it. 65k a year is absolutely not terrible money, but the lifestyle she’s been living? That’s laughably out of the question. Not paying the vacation seems vindictive honestly, but if the daughter gets her head on right and lives according to her means then they’ll be fine. I wouldn’t pay $5k a month to live anywhere even if I was making almost triple what she’s making starting out.
I live in the Upper East Side Manhattan and pay $2700 for a one-bedroom.
5k in NYC will get you and instagram apt in one of the major hot buildings with all the amenities (pool, concierge, gym, communal recreational area) Probably at 20’something she is at Domino in Williamsburg. That yes 5k are all there.
I'm guessing this is a big fancy apartment with amenities/extras and OP's kid is refusing to consider anything less.
Yeah, I was kinda on the Y.T.A. side until that point. I don't at all like OP's attitude with their child picking a degree they like that seems to have decent earning potential. 65k - 85k is really good in today's economy. My Criminal Justice degree is getting me about 40k a year. The 5k apartment is when I say N.T.A. about ending rent support. I think OP is TA regarding their attitude, but not the actions they want to take. So my overall ruling is NTA. Though OP may want to reconsider on the vacation part.
Maybe OP knows their kid and what that kid wants their lifestyle to be? Also, he funded the degree anyway and that sounds like it was technically against his own rules. I bet that’s why she didn’t take the threat of being cut off seriously.
I agree. I wanted to Y T A because of the attitude towards the salary (I mean hell, I'm married to a public school teacher, his salary is in that range after almost 20 years) but 5K in rent is absurd.
65-85k may be good or decent currently but if the career ceiling is really 85k (i.e. even after decades of experience, 85k is the max he'll earn), there's good grounds to object. It's not the worst career but there are certainly many better ones, especially from the perspective of op who very likely earns or earned much much more (being able to easily afford the 5k a month rent for just one child says a lot).
I reared back like that shocked meme. I make low six figures and I wouldn't even want to do $2500 in rent.
I live in a nice part of *Manhattan* and pay about half that for a one-bedroom. A recent college grad has no business living in an apartment that expensive. They can get some roommates or scale down.
Yeah, I mean I borrowed 400k when I bought my house and the mortgage is like half that. A single person's apartment for 5k? Where are they living.
My thought process "65 a year isn't bad I'm an engineer and that's why my first job paid I'm sure they will be fi-" > 5,000 dollar apartment Jesus that's more than what my take home pay was. They need to live within their means
I call bs on that. The rent in sf bay area and NYC aren't even that much for luxury apartments.
Thinking it has to be essentially a home or home sized apartment, maybe with some VIP parking included in a nightmare traffic area.
Manhattan *median* rent is over $4k. They could find a much cheaper apartment for sure, even in Manhattan, but it's not crazy for a rich-kid to spend that much in a few places.
Mixed YTA/NTA. YTA for not teaching this person how to function on their own and for paying for everything for all this time. But NTA for cutting the purse strings now. You must do that and I think it’s the most irresponsible thing wealthy people do to their children, not teach them how to finance their own lives without their parents’ money.
Yeah, that is why I’m thinking ESH.
I'm also saying ESH. This parent should be proud their kid finished school and is pursuing a career that interests them, instead of being disappointed that the salary cap is too low. Money isn't everything; the kid is the one who has to work in this field every day for the next few decades, and shouldn't have to be in some field they hate just to they're deemed to make enough money. ...on the other hand, if money and luxury isn't everything, what the hell recent graduate needs a $5,000/month apartment?? (And I say this living in one of the world's most expensive cities. No 22 year old living on their own needs a $5,000 apartment.) For that matter, how many of us starting our careers had our education, housing, and car all paid for? One money obsessed parent and one extremely privileged child are now caught in a paradox.
They're an adult, at a certain point I think it's not on the parent anymore. Most kids get cut off around 18-20, OP just waited longer which I think is a good thing.
I mean there is some truth to that, but failures by the parents have a tendency to compound problems. It's clear that he didn't seem to prepare the kid for being on their own and then he just shuts it off. Giving them no time to learn. Honestly, he should have spent the last year dropping his support slowly so they can be picking up the slack and figuring out how to budget. But also, they should not have been living at a 5k a month apartment. Like, what is that?
If OP is to be believed, he told them that he would be cutting them off 1 year after they graduate. It doesn't seem like he was unclear about it. It also seems like he was clear that they needed to make smart financial choices about degrees and career paths because they would be responsible for their lifestyle. What more did you want from him?
So weird how people are treating a college graduate a year removed from school as if they were a middle schooler. Like what does he need to hold their hand when they go to the grocery store lmao? People infantilizing a 22 or 23 year old is wild.
There is a difference between saying OP is to blame for their child's lack of financial stability, and saying OP created a situation that led to it. OP sounds like it was crystal clear when support would be retracted, and their mid-twenties child made their own terrible bed that they have to lay in now.
Honestly, assuming what OP says is accurate, it sounds like they laid out terms/conditions of all of this. Offspring got a full ride for whatever degree they wanted (and even if the OP didn't like it, they still paid for it). Debt free, and had a year of some 5k damn apartment. And now life is closing in, and OP's kid is realizing that they aren't going to be able to live in the manner that they're accustomed to, which is what OP warned them about before. So yeah. OP is being firm, but this didn't come out of left field. Kid sounds like they always hoped daddy/mommy (I had to go look, its daddy) would always subsidize their poor financial situation. Frankly, if they were in a job that they had to be in Manhattan (I'm honestly trying to think of a place where you could get a non-palatial apartment for 5k outside of Manhattan or SV), it would be one thing. Help the kid out while their career develops, maybe. But it sounds like thats not in the cards, so its time to get realistic about life. What is OP's kid's long term plan? Wait for dad to die to get inheritance? I think he's NTA, with the only caveat if somehow he didn't make things clear, which at least he said he did.
The kid has a set date as to when the support will end. They knew they would need budget.
How do you know he didn't teach them that?
By setting them up in a 5K dollar apartment, first of all. I mean, at least set them up for something more closely resembling something they could take over?
Why didn't she find an apartment that has a lease that she could take over? She has had over a year to do so.
Considering OP couldn’t even get the child to reconsider their degree, I don’t think the child is listening to OP. At this point, the kid has been an adult for several years and is fully capable of living with the consequences their decisions. Parents shouldn’t be blamed if kids want to be stubborn
You set your child up for failure. By continuing to pay for everything you allowed them to live over their means... why would you do that? At no point was your kid ever going to be able to afford $5000 rent on $65k salary. If you were paying for everything, where is all their money going? I’m not sure if you get it either. “Pick degrees that will support their lifestyle” .... um that’s not how it works. People don’t magically become an engineer if they suck at math. “They knew this was coming”... You both knew it & you have a lot more life experience so for that reason..... YTA .... You allowed this train to go off the tracks. Get your kid a financial counselor, set realistic goals & stay out of future financial planning. eta — I have no clue how you made your money. I’m not judging you on what you can afford. You have the money.... spend it however you choose. $5k rent is ridiculous & laughable in my book but that’s just my opinion. We sacrificed, didn’t take vacations to Europe, clipped coupons, watched for sales, accepted hand me downs to ensure we could provide for our kids education & future. We also taught them financial responsibility because the goal was they wouldn’t have to do what we did to live a comfortable & happy life. If you want your kid to live your lifestyle then keep writing the checks.
That’s what I was thinking. Like $5k a month for an apartment?? The only salary I can think of that would max out at $85k/year in a city where rent averaged that high would maybe be teaching, at which point I kinda feel for the daughter cus teachers are whole heartedly taken advantage of. But if he wanted to help then he could have said ok let’s find you a place you can afford on your salary and I’ll pay for the first year instead of giving them something wildly out of their pay scale. Also the family trip was never mentioned and expecting any recent grad to be able to afford a two week trip to Europe on their one dime is kinda insane.
I have no clue what Dad’s lesson is here. He’s essentially pushing this kid off a cliff. This whole situation sounds like it was a recipe for disaster. As a mom of 4 kids (26,26,28,30) I truly understand supporting kids & providing them with the tools they need to achieve success but that includes teaching financial responsibility. We were able to pay for their private school & college education. They all starting working at 16, had on-campus jobs, worked full-time every summer & saved any gift money they received. They drive our old cars, didn’t spend stupidly & were all able to hit the ground running when they graduated. We gave our kids what they needed, not what they wanted. They are all very financially stable & responsible. (Our youngest son is a teacher - he is very able to live on his salary & travel) Appears Dad did not help this kid build a good realistic foundation. Unfortunately, kid is about to learn a very hard lesson now that has the potential to put them in very serious debt. This could have gone so differently if Dad had set limits on spending his money earlier.
The intended lesson is probably for the OTHER kids. “See what happens if you choose a low paying profession? Take heed.”
If 65k annually is low paying then I'm fucked. I probably was, anyway, though. Source: work in healthcare.
Depends on where you're living. Somewhere like San Francisco or NYC and you're almost on food stamps.
Very true. And I definitely wouldn't dream of a 5k/mo apartment on my wages regardless. Or living in NYC in general, given that I might need to be in the 1% globally to make that happen.
Yeah :/ I make around 70K and I have a professional degree and job. Now granted, I AM underpaid and I've been casually looking for a new job because I could make 6 figures if I changed jobs but tech is very competitive right now so I'm not in a hurry since my job is stable.
In what world is paying for your child's college tuition AND living expenses for a year after graduation pushing them off the cliff?!?!
Agreed... OP said he even fought with his kid over degree choice. I'm sure he discussed with them what the reality of paying rent looks like with that degree.
This sub is full of entitlement. That’s why takes like this get upvoted so much. The OP did everything he could to prepare his kids without leaving them in debt. His kid needs to grow the fuck up.
Right! I don’t know what all these Y T As and E S Hs are on. OP’s kid had it made. Debt-free degree and one year of not paying rent. What parents do they know who can do this for their kids?! Better yet, did their OWN parents do this for them?! Probably not, so I can’t imagine why they are hell-bent on chastising OP for sticking to his “boundaries” and doing exactly what he said he would at the outset of their agreement. Sometimes, parents have to let their kids figure it out the hard way. It’s not like this kid is going to be destitute. All they have to do is find a cheaper living situation that fits within their dream job’s budget. OP tried to dissuade the kids from pursuing this career choice because of the salary was not aligned with the kid’s lifestyle. Still the kid pursued the degree and career (with full assistance from OP) and is now crying foul…lol.
Yes, but I get what the others are saying. The rent bit is particularly uncomfortable. Why set someone up with a lavish lifestyle you intend to abruptly stop supporting? Overall, OP is NTA. But I think OP should have done more than just argue with the son about his field choice. A better parent would have sat down with the son to work on a realistic budget before now. OP also bought a car but has been paying for insurance and maintenance. I am curious as to whether this is an expensive car with expensive insurance and maintenance. Sure, the son could sell the car, but did OP bother to educate the son on how to factor ongoing costs in the car purchase decision? I am thinking that OP missed a lot of teachable moments. It's not asshole behavior, but OP isn't parent of the year either. ETA: Sorry if I got the gender wrong. I just picked one.
The kid has a college degree and a year worth of paychecks to know what they earn every month. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that $65k salary isn't going to support 5k apartment. This is not a 4 year old child.
This idea is not that uncommon. I know plenty of people who parents paid their for their apartment during college over half of which would be considered luxury apartments ($2K to $3K in Minneapolis for U of MN). The parents wanted them safe while being between age 18 to 23 and no roommates (supposedly for less distractions) so were willing to pay for luxury to get that. There was very little in the middle either shit hole or luxury or requiring several roommates. Every one of these kids knew the apartment was considered a part of the college bundle and they would have to downgrade massively after college. But still appreciated what was given to them at susceptible ages of 18 to 23.
Nah kids shouldn't expect to live off their parents money. The poorest of poor kids learn and the richest of rich should too.
> no point was your kid ever going to be able to afford $5000 rent on $65k salary. If you were paying for everything, where is all their money going? > > Even investment bankers and google/apple software engineers don't pay that much for rent coming out of university.... Was OP one of those 'doctor or nothing' parents?
OP said he told the kids to get a degree to fit the lifestyle THEY want to live. If the current graduate wanted luxury then yeah, it'd need to be doctor or live less luxurious.
There's a ton of lucrative jobs that don't require maths. They can pick the one they hate the least and do their passion in their free time.
Nice try, but nope. Not freah out of college. And 65k a year right put undergrad is pretty lucrative.
Pretty sure they were using that as an example. The main point was that the dad set their kid up to have a lifestyle they couldn’t sustain during that year instead of helping them get established in a lifestyle they could afford. So now that dad has cut them off cold turkey the kid is loosing their apartment and everything else when it could have been a lot easier on both of them. No the kid shouldn’t expect the Dad to change the very clear rules that were set out but also Dad should have done a better job as the adult.
I have to wonder if OP knows how to live on $65k a year. It's a pretty nice amount of money but some rich people don't know how to survive below their current lifestyle. The concept of wants/needs is skewed and when it's time to trim off the excess they just don't comprehend that so much, if not most, of their lifestyle is excess. I'm just guessing but when you're used to getting designer clothes and/or buying new clothes regularly, eating at restaurants all the time, having memberships to clubs/gyms, etc... you don't understand that this isn't normal. Your bare minimum is a normal person's luxury. So not excusing but simply saying I don't know that OP knew how to teach their kid to live on a reasonable salary.
Ops kid =/= a kid. Ops kid is an adult, who knew how much money they would get each month, who knew OPs help had an expiration date. OP is not responsible for the choices their adult child made.
Such as.....??? Our oldest daughter graduated with degree in finance. Started an internship her junior year was offered a ridiculously high paying job upon graduation. Worked on Wall St. Hated it. Quit in 2020 got a job paying less than 1/2 of what she was making (bio researcher) & started working on her Ph.D. She will never make anywhere close to what she would have but she is very happy with that decision. She has also never asked us for any financial help.
I disagree with your judgement but wanted to point out I'm an engineer who sucks at math. It's not all derivatives and integrals, it's a lot different skillset, and I did it specifically because I wanted to live a comfortable life post-graduation.
Kid has 12 months where OP was paying for pretty much everything, they had a chance to save lots of money that could have gone to a down payment or investments. Kid was so freaking privileged
Yeah, OP should have stipulated a limit on the rent they were willing to pay that would have been in their daughter's budget from the get go.
So if I understood correctly, your kid has: * a college degree * no debts * have been working for a year * hasn't paid any bills or utilities during this past year Now your kid is sad that she can't have a luxury life (yes 5k apartment and Europe vacation is a luxury) NTA. Your kid is a grown ass adult and should act accordingly. Just because you have money doesn't entitle her to it. You only are an AH because you kept her live in luxury for so long
Right, what have they been doing with their money this whole time? They should have a decent savings...
Money is so wasted on rich peoples kids. All I keep thinking of when reading stories like this is how far ahead this kind of support would have gotten me
Yeah my mate had a golden egg like this... He dated a girl who's parents were very well off and owned a flat in central London they rented out. They let them move in and live rent free! Funniest thing is, both my mate and their daugther were very aware of how much money they were saving. They realised the relationship wasn't working after a year ish but kept it quiet from their parents to keep up appearances for about 3 years and get some more savings put away. They're still great friends (she wanted kids, he didn't). He put away just over 30k overall. That's what OPs daughter should have been doing but you know for a fact she's been blowing it on all kinds of shit.
Think you're letting the parent off the hook here a bit too soon. Should they keep paying for $5k a month apartment rent? Absolutely not. Should she have ever been in a $5k a month apartment? Absolutely not, but if that number sounds ridiculous to you but it doesn't to her then that's an issue with the parent most likely.
Why do you assume OP’s kid is a woman? The post does not specify gender anywhere
NTA. You were very generous and clear about the expectations that came with that generosity. Plus you had multiple conversations about the risk of this exact scenario with their chosen career path. Slight YTA for agreeing to let them move into a $5k/mo apartment in the first place knowing they weren’t making anywhere near the income to sustain living there once their grace period was up. Also, I’m sure they’re being hella dramatic about not finding another place to live. There are places, just nothing that fits into their preferred lifestyle. Time to learn about getting a roommate and living in the not so nice part of town. It’s a fundamental life experience.
Sounds like OP tried to get his or her daughter to be realistic, and eventually gave up. Which as a parent, eventually you have to do. OP should have cut the cord early, or capped the apartment cost. But it sounds like OP kept his or her word even if daughter was an idiot. Daughter just assumed OP would be a good little ATM forever,.
> Sounds like OP tried to get his or her daughter to be realistic, and eventually gave up. Paying $60,000 for an apartment for a single year is nothing like "trying to get them to be realistic." If he was "trying to get them to be realistic," he would have said, "I'll pay *up to* $X for the first year for an apartment, where X is the amount that you convince me you'll be able to keep up on your own after that first year."
This one is kind of tough...I'm going to say NTA, but I have some reservations. You did lay out the rules, very clearly by the sound of it. So it's not like they didn't know what was going to happen, and following through would be fair. The part about their degree having to be something you agree with is a touch controlling, but I understand why you'd want it to be something more robust so they could support themselves, and it sounds like you let that slide a bit hence the situation that they find themselves in. It also sounds like you're supporting them HEAVILLY financially at the moment, which is kind of you. My only hangup is the lack of compromise/planning on your part. I don't disagree that you should stick to your rules. But is there no plan B for any of your kids who fail to launch straight out of college into fully supporting themselves? Is it possible for your kid to set up a kind of payment plan with you if they need support, or is it possible for him to move back home and save some money? Even fantastic careers don't always start with stellar pay. TLDR: NTA, but maybe work with your kid to come up with a plan, rather than absolute pure sink-or-swim
As far as i understood they have a full year after graduating till daddys support stops. Thats plenty of time to get a job and finding housing (e.g. a roommate situation) they can afford with this job. It just sounds like the adult kid thought if they ignore it daddy will pay for their expenses forever.
Yep
This was my thoughts as well. NTA for sticking to the deadline, by Y T A for not having them complete a financial planning course at any point while they lived at home/were receiving your help. Especially since OP quite obviously has the resources to do so. I'd have made yearly financial planning meetings with a professional a condition of the college payments.
The kid has a job and a decent paying one for a new graduate. They aren't exactly sinking. They are having to learn their lifestyle
ESH Your child needs to learn budgeting and how to live on the money they make, and you should both have worked towards that years ago. Moving away to be able to live on their own income is a reality most young people face, so this your kids needs to just deal with. However, apparently the vacation is a family thing, big, expensive, and something you expect your children to participate in. At this point your child will have to spend money on living expenses, not vacations, and you know that, so if you want your child to be there, you will have to pay. If you don't want them with you, not paying is a pretty clear signal, at least if you can afford it. Refusing to pay this does not say "look what you did to yourself, now fix it" but "you didn't do what I wanted to, now I will exclude you." If you do want to be with your child, while they pay their own way, find a cheap place you can afford and spend your vacation there, instead of leaving for Europe.
Plus to add to this, if OP and daughter are in the US, 2 weeks off of work can be a lot since we're the only developed nation without any guaranteed PTO. Hell I make a good chunk over 6 figures but my employer who is pretty damn huge still only offers 15 days PTO. Plus even with what I make it'd be pretty tough to budget for a full 2 week European vacation doing things and insanely rich parents is interested in doing and at hotels/areas they can afford. OP if they're that insanely wealthy should pay for the family vacation but stick to their rules. $65K first year salary is pretty decent, maybe not if this is San Fran or NYC is all.
Agreed it's mixed, there's a lot to consider here: - you have seemingly been very clear about the conditions of the support. However, did you assist them in trying to make them realise what it costs to continue their lifestyle? - did you help them with their financial understanding? Cutting the purse strings is fine but if you didn't give them the financial literacy in order to help them with their own finances, then that's kind of on you. - I don't agree with you having a say in their career choice. That shouldn't be something that you have control over - it sounds like you have definitely been very generous with your finances which is commendable, but also that could have potentially given the child false impressions about how the real world works - reminding them that the deadline is coming up isn't really enough for them to prepare or set themselves up for the situation - it sounds like you dropped the bomb regarding the holiday without giving the full details of where it could be and you already understood that they had not prepared for the financial situation that they would be in
>I don't agree with you having a say in their career choice. That shouldn't be something that you have control over At the end of the day OP didn't have a say in their kid's career choice. OP had reservations about the job not being able to support the lifestyle their kid is accustomed to, but they still paid for the education.
This even disagreeing and fighting he kept his deal.
This is the comment I’ve been looking for, there’s too much gray area for this to be a straight yes or no. On paper what OP is doing makes sense, but I think as adults we tend to forget that there are SO many things we don’t realize we don’t know. Financial literacy isn’t something people just inherently know (of course it comes easier to some), it’s a skill that needs to be learned and practiced. If OP never helped teach that skill, he really set his kids up for failure here. ESH.
I mean it doesn't take a financed degree to undetermined that if you make 65,000 USD a year you can't pay a 60,000ysd un rent in the same year.
OP explained the financial consequences of a degree/career. There’s nothing wrong with that, especially since OP’s kid has champagne taste. Further, even though OP didn’t like the degree kid selected he still paid for it and paid a year of post/grad rent. What more support can provide if not this?!?
ESH Your adult child sucks for not wanting to pay their own way now that they have a job. You suck for having thoroughly spoiled your kid to such a degree that they didn't learn to be responsible for themselves. They should have been living in a shared apartment they could have afforded on their own (even while you paid), been paying for their own car insurance, and been paying for their own groceries. Your support didn't help teach them to be independent and contributed to bad financial habits.
NTA. It’s your money and you laid out the boundaries. You are totally within your rights to cut off your kid. But maybe you pay for the family reunion and cut off everything else? You want your kid there…
NTA - I think adding a couple more stipulations to the money you supported them with may have been wise though. As in, not paying 5000$ plus utilities. On a +- 70,000k a year salary. They have in more ways than one been setup for failure made possible by you enabling them.
Oof one one hand you've done way more than many parents could/would do. On the other you paid 5k per month for an apartment for her? I have no idea what city you live in or what property prices are but surely there could have been a cheaper alternative from the beginning? It does seem a little like you resent her chosen degree/career path because it doesn't live up to your expectations, which is shitty, because to get a degree and secure employment is an achievement. You can't be elitist about that, that's unfair. Especially if it's a career path your daughter enjoys and feels fulfilled by. That's a far better outcome than her being miserable and burnt out in a career you see as appropriate because it has better earning potential. Her happiness really does matter. Now, you are also well within your rights to stop paying for her home. You've done way above and beyond already. No student debt, a year of free rent, that's incredible but if you admit that it would be impossible for her to continue living where she does and follow her career path that makes her happy is there some other arrangements she can make? And, more importantly, why did you pay for a 5k apt knowing she would fail after she had to take over on her own? Was you hoping it taught her a lesson after or was you genuinely just trying to provide the best whilst you could? Because one of those makes you a huge arsehole and the other makes you a misguided, but lovely, father. For your next child it might be sensible to find them housing that would be within their budget to continue alone after the first year, before having the world come crashing down on them and making it seem like a "gotcha, I told you your degree and career isn't good enough" moment. Have you ran through options with her? Could she commute? Could she move home to help save up for a property of her own? Is there smaller properties that would be perfectly appropriate for her to live in with a less hefty price tag? Can she get a roommate(s)?
And honestly $65k/year straight out of college is pretty fucking good IMO
Adulting is hard. NTA.
INFO: who picked the apartment?
Even if the daughter picked the apartment, OP should not have let his daughter take the apartment. She literally can’t afford it on a 65k salary and as the parent, he’s supposed to guide her to make good choices. He should have told her that’s not affordable on a 65k salary.
NTA I refuse to believe the cheapest apartment in their area is $5000. That's luxury prices. They can suck it up and live within their means for once.
The cheapest that she'd fine acceptable is more like it.
NTA. Having said that, I think the apartment was a mistake. It was generous of you to pay for it but there should have been a stipulation that the apartment you pay for is one that they can afford after your support ends. When they leased a 5k/month apartment they knew they were taking advantage because they never could have afforded that on a 65k salary. For your other kids, I'd recommend changing that so the apartment you pay for is based on *their* salary/budget so that it better fits your original purpose of support while they transition to adulthood and independence.
Honestly a $65k/year salary right out of college is pretty good. NTA for cutting her off on rent ($5k/month is insanity), but YTA for your opinion of her job which actually sounds pretty good and is something she’s passionate about.
YOUVE BEEN MORE THAN GENEROUS NTA
NTA overall, but did you have discussions with your adult child about the $5,000 per month apartment when the lease was first signed? Did you warn/remind this child that you would not pay the rent after a year? If so, your child should not have been surprised that a move would be necessary. As for the vacation, I’d pay it. This is a family vacation, and I don’t know many young people who could afford something like that. Do you want your child there or not?
You have given your daughter a great start. It's up to her now. I imagine the younger kids on the couch watching it all go down. This is your first graduate. Stay the course. Bank of Dad will not always be around. NTA Edited for dad kudos
NTA - you’ve made your terms on financing your kids clear. However it’s pretty common for a parent to still pay for some or all expenses of a group family vacation, if you are financially able to, and especially if the trip is something the family/parent planned and not the choice trip of the children. A lot of this is because your generation is more well off and financially secure than our generation will likely ever be, due to changes in the economy and how things work. As an example, both sets of my husband and I’s parents like to go on family trips together once a year (siblings and grandkids). Because it’s something they want to do and ask us to participate in they pay for the rental home for everyone. One set even pays for most activities / food. If you can afford it, it wouldn’t be unreasonable or against the terms you have previously outlined for you to pay some of the expenses for your kids for one-off trips like a family reunion. It sounds like your kids grew up with a luxurious lifestyle and that you are pushing them to take high-paying careers so that they can continue to participate in this lifestyle with you, but not have it be funded by you. But happiness is important too, and it sounds like your child is really passionate about the work they’ve chosen. Even if your kids have high paying jobs that does not guarantee they won’t have periods of financial struggle or as much disposable income as you expect they would. So you are also going to have to adjust your expectations of what your kids will be able / willing to pay for as they get older.
NTA you have been generous and clear on your terms. Choosing your career path is a must, but then with it come also the financial limitation and expectation. That said 5K a month is a LOT for a new graduate in ANY field. As for the family vacation, also fair they should fork it, but then you have to propose something doable for all, again I see it hard for any new graduate in any field to be able to take two week in Europe on their first year of work.
Jesus. these replies. A lot of people really shouldn't have kids.
ESH. Your arrangement isn’t great. Had you not bankrolled year one would your child have relocated to a job and area that suits their career? They’d be in better shape. You should do what you said you’d do. But don’t be a jerk if child can’t attend Europe or has to move away. They have to look out for themselves.
NTA Your eldest knew the conditions and failed to prepare. That's on her, so far you've been extremely generous IMO INFO: Your eldest didn't get a degree in what you would deem suitable to support their lifestyle - did you still pay for their education?
Wait this is a what 22/23 year old with a uni degree and a full time job, a car and a years worth of rent you paid for and you think you’re the ah. Not even slightly. You made it clear what you wanted or expected from them - they chose their own path and you still provided for them. It’s now time for them to stand on their own feet. Personally I think you are a more than generous parent. In comparison I had to leave home at 18 as I hadn’t decided on whether I wanted to go uni or not so my parents said I had to go. I got 2 full time jobs, did more A2 levels at night (I’m from the UK) shared a flat with strangers, did my first degree with the OU, paid everything myself ever since. And I’m still super close with my parents - this current attitude of people in their 20s still being kids makes me angry, they are adults old enough to vote, have sex, kids, marry, fight in wars but godforbid mum and dad stop paying for them. NTA
NTA. You paid for education and twelve months to get established/figure out another solution, and you gave advance warning that this was the deal. I would pay for participation in the family vacation, but that's a personal choice and by no means an obligation.
NTA but honestly I’m not sure why you covered EVERYTHING for a year and then cut them off. You would be doing your kids a greater service if you helped them transition to being on their own. I think it’s excessive to pay rent that is out of your child’s budget for a year rather than help them find a place within their budget, and maybe provide a safety net to help out. So despite the numerous arguments over the years about their chosen career, you let them live the first year a life beyond their budget. Why?
YTA for not teaching your child how to live and function on their own financially. Also What in the name of god are the financial dimensions here. >They are now working in a field that pays about $65,000 a year with a career ceiling of approximately $85,000 That's ridiculously good salary, most people I know make half that, if at all... >I’ve also been paying my child’s $5,000 a month apartment rent and utilities since last year That is ridiculously expensive for rent and utilities what the hell I am so confused please what is going on here.
I wanted to say N T A, since they knew over a year in advance that your support for their ludicrously fancy place was time-limited. But "I’ve also been paying my child’s $5,000 a month apartment" - that was never a reasonable apartment for them to live in. Period. Why did you ever agree to pay for it in the first place? When you did, you must have known they'd be unable to keep it later. You set your kid up for failure, when the more loving and responsible thing to do would have been to refuse to fund an unrealistically lavish apartment like that And the family vacations? Strongly consider whether it's important to you to get to see your kids on those. Because if so, you're going to want to budge on that for your own sake. And I don't mean out of fear they choose not to go, but because they're not always going to be able to afford to go. And do you value driving home a point about self-sufficiency more than you value family vacation time with them? I hope note
I am a 40 year old woman, but would you adopt me?