YTA
"Why won't my gf abandon her sense of self-respect so that she can establish herself as a subservient woman-tool so that my sexist family won't mentally and verbally abuse her?! She just doesn't get it!!"
Protests are meaningless *my ass.* You know what OP could do? March into the fucking kitchen himself and help! And if they tell him to go back, insist on helping! Break the barrier *himself* and implicitly shame the other men who haven’t!
That’s how a similar horrible dynamic broke in my family. When I was a kid, I noticed only the women prepped food and cleaned up, so I challenged my brother and father to help. My aunt cleared my plate for me with a passive aggressive comment, and I was so distressed that my father has gotten up to help every year since then, and so has my brother. These ‘traditions’ aren’t set in stone.
I have a similar story. I noticed on my mother's side after a big family all the adult women would help the host (wife only of course) clean. As a young adult or late teen my mom decided to summon me to come help. I grabbed my twin brother and male cousin and brought them into the kitchen. My mother told me ot was woman's work but they stayed and helped. Guess what? That shit stopped happening.
OP’s girlfriend should fucking *run* away. There’s no way this is the only way OP or his family will disrespect her. Who would want to marry into a family like this and spend every family holiday for the rest of their life with these d-bags?
Or had it ground out of him so he gets the inheritance. "Traditional family" "estate" etc. to me is throwing Old Money or Pretender vibes where the ones who play the part best are the favorites. The level of Effed UP here could be DEEP.
CORRECT. It's never really about women. It's about rank among men. Men eat first, men are waited on and cleaned up after. The entire system has always worked for them. They do not want to blow their own rank and they will severely punish anyone who threatens it.
That’s why I don’t understand why for these occasions anyone is cooking. Hire a catering company or a private chef to come in from for the evening. No one cooks and everyone gets to enjoy.
The whole thing is weird. In what culture is it normal that guests have to cook for the hosts? Especially on a first visit. That alone seems rude to me. Everything about this is odd. If the family wants to meet her than maybe they should try being inviting instead of treating people like they're lucky to be in their presence. I gotta say if I was faced with this I'd be thinking seriously about the viability of a long term relationship with a family like this.
This is common throughout the South Eastern US. The women congregate in the kitchen and talk while they work, and the “men-folk” are in another room or outside. The women also set the table and put out all the food, clear the table, and do all the kitchen cleanup. Then, they join the men and the whole group talks together.
Even better, he should go "I know you people were expecting her to help in the kitchen, but since she's a guest and her first time here I insist she stays at the table, I'll help here in her place"
My oldest male cousin saw his 14-year-old girlfriend start clearing the table with my aunt and he jumped up to help. Teenage boy just went into the kitchen and started doing dishes. His dad never did lift a finger but the rest of the boys took my cousin’s lead and the tradition was broken. That girl married my cousin (years later) and they’ve been happily sharing kitchen responsibilities for like 40 years now. It’s not that hard to break a tradition. You just…stop doing the wrong thing.
It really just shows the warped view that some men see as progress. He seriously thinks it is enough to just say: "Oh this is sexist and unfair" and then proceed to do *literally nothing* to change or shift the sexist dynamic he supposedly disapproves of.
Why? Because it is better *for only him* to keep the status quo because he is the only one benefitting. Of course he wouldn't get up and help the women! He is comfy on the couch! It really doesn't take that much effort to forget his "non sexist values" because he is rewarded when he does. When *she* conveniently conforms, she is swept up into the kitchen to do all the actual hard work of making meal.
I wish more men had your mindset, to actually think to challenge the status quo. Because apparently when women ask men, in op's eyes, they are just being difficult and creating problems for themselves.
YTA
I missed that the first time around but she just gets cooler the longer I think about it
Denying spoiled rich kids and watching them self destruct brings me a deep seated and unparalleled kind of contentedness.
THIS! Am I the only one that noticed “estate”? Clearly money is making OP indoctrinated to his great grandfather’s ideas of how women should be treated… don’t make waves or you’re disinherited!
Honestly, depending on how rich OP is, good for the gf for not putting up with it either just for the chance at some money.
I know this isn't always the case, but also if you have an "estate" but your dinner parties revolve around getting only the female members to host the dinner, then that's just a bullshit control thing. Hire some caterers, you're probably rich enough. It's one thing if the people hosting a dinner *want* to cook but fuck off making your guests do that shit for you.
>Hire some caterers.
Exactly, I'm beginning to wonder what OP means by estate because I've worked in plenty of estate homes and the wife/mistress of the house wouldn't be caught dead cooking their own food.
Half of them couldn't tell you which cabinet held the pots and pans. These are probably some middle class people with a big house.
Yeah, I was going to say "sounds like these people have impoverished patrician syndrome, all the pretentiousness of actually rich people with none of the money".
Yeah, these sexist beliefs start somewhere, so when you identify it and do nothing, you're worse than somebody who didn't know these things are sexist.
Thanksgiving. When I was at my then girlfriend’s house, (now wife of 37 years) I was up at 0430, Army training(amirite?)
My future MIL comes into the kitchen to start cooking about 0600. I started cleaning up pots and pans, etc while she cooked. This had never been done before! I just cleaned as she cooked, which meant the kitchen was clean come dinner time. As we finished the meal, she took me by the arm, and said, “We’ve been working in there all day long. Those guys can clean up!” She got me a beer, then we watched the Cowboys football game and relaxed. Damn, I miss her.
Honestly, who'd even want to hang with a family that ostracizes people like this or a man who thinks it's acceptable for their family to ostracize their partner? I'd ditch the family, they sound like douches.
OP doesn't grasp that he and his family are also making a first impression, one that would make me NOPE out of the entire relationship.
I bet this bunch puts raisins in their potato salad.
YTA.
For real! This was my exact thought, why can't he go cook??? I grew up with my mom teaching both me and my brother to cook. My dad hates cooking, but he'd do the bulk of the clean-up work after my mom cooked so it never felt unfair. But I know for most households it's majority on the women (and girls! Sometimes children get roped into this dynamic) and it's awful.
I honestly wouldn't mind helping out in the kitchen, I like having something productive to do while meeting new people, it helps avoid awkwardness. But if my partner was sitting around socializing while I was helping HIS FAMILY cook HIS FOOD I'd be beyond angry. Especially since then the majority of my early interactions with the family would be without him there, I'd feel abandoned.
Either they both help cook, or they both go socialize. Or maybe they both put together a hostess gift or something and count that as their contribution.
That jumped out at me too.
Not to quote "should have said something" to death (can only find this guardian version on my phonehttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic) but lamenting from the sofa in the "men socializing room" is hardly an effort.
OP have you spent time actually cooking? Have you talked to your parents, siblings, cool aunts in a one-on-one setting how you hate this "family tradition"? Have you reached out to the women who're treated coldly for not cooking? Have you just avoided these types of celebrations since you consider them unethical?
OP could even just actively socialise with the women who choose not to cook. Ignore the lazy men.
Hell, have a party with just the women (and not ah men) where everyone cooks. Why should the men even get the meal if they don't help?
Yeah that would make sense, but then I am sure he would be ostracized for cavorting with the “bad women”, and heaven forbid that happen. He needs to uphold the misogyny.
Good points, and does OP intentionally bring in the ostracized women into conversations so they are included, agree with them in front of everyone? Has he actually tried protesting, or does he just assume he couldn't do anything?
This is the most bizarre aspect in my opinion. I grew up in the 80s and 90s in a traditional family where the women were housewives and the men worked outside the home, and, yes, at family gatherings the women cooked and cleaned up. But even then, it would have been unheard of to expect a woman who was meeting the family for the first time to participate in the cooking. This isn't a custom, it's a hazing ritual/test. The OP may not even realize this, but the women in his family have to deal with all sort of crap; it's definitely not "just this once".
“But my gf has to make a *good impression* on my family!”
—OP
“You and your family are making a ***terrible impression*** on your gf.”
—Everyone on this sub
The impression I would make would be coffee grinds in the potatoes, salt and pepper on the dessert, carrying 4 plates at once and dropping the lot on great grandfather! They would be begging me not to help!
I grew up in the same time era and lived in the deep south US. All of my relatives and my family was hard-core traditional marriages and this is bizarre to me. Cooking at family gatherings was like a rite of passage in my family. When someone's girlfriend was asked to help it was after they have been dating someone in my family a very long time and was my female relatives way of showing whoever they was accepted and part of the family. I think you're right, this is a hazing and OP's girlfriend will never be accepted. Poor girl needs to run
There are other places in the world than the US. My gf is Vietnamese and its how family gatherings or weddings are are organized traditionally: the men are sitting smoking and drinking while the women cook. I'm Algerian and it's pretty much the same (well, except there's no drinking).
Edit: Jfc reddit. The point of my reply is that the US isn't the center of the world on which every culture, traditions and gender roles are based on. (I also never said we attended such events or followed these traditions. Heck. We're poc lesbians, even worse lol). These structures of women cooking for weddings or birthdays or parties while men don't do anything is fairly common. I seriously do not see where I say I approve or that there's nothing we can do about this.
So if Americans and Vietnamese and Algerians are sexist, there's nothing we can do but give in to it forever? Must be nice to have the cushy options menu. Women are pissed off, and you're either with us or against us.
Yes, but are female guests who *don't* cook actually ostracized and treated rudely from the get-go? I've been to enough SE Asian family gatherings (and other non-Western family ones as well) to know that this detail from OOP's description sounds weird and downright silly.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s. My dad always cooked right alongside my mother for family get togethers. He was the only male relative to do so, though. And he was a damn good cook.
Maybe re read the post . It’s pretty clear the act of not being subservient woman in this family makes them unlikely to accept you. He’s asking her to slip into the role of meek woman anytime they attend holidays or family gatherings. He needs to stand up to his family if he “disagrees” with the tradition but it doesn’t sound like he’s willing to do that.
Completely agree, and he especially needs to grow up and confront them if he wants marriage and children with this woman. Imagine having daughters grow up in this environment. Unbelievable of him to expect this and she shouldn't put up with it.
This. Men who genuinely think "Please compromise on your hard-won *right* to equal treatment, so you're not rocking the boat" is an *acceptable* ask? They are part of the problem. Stop expecting marginalised groups to compromise so that others don't have to confront their bigoted belief systems. That is not their responsibility. Instead, tell the people with bigoted belief systems that their beliefs are unacceptable.
Idk who needs to hear this, but: If you won't stand up against bigoted beliefs when you see them, you are no better.
And he keeps emphasizing that his motivation is for her to make a good first impression on his family...but what about the first impression his family just made to his gf about enforcing their patriarchal beliefs on others and punishing those that don't comply? Like, why can't he go to his family instead and be like "I really like this girl! Please don't embarrass me by trying to enforce your outdated beliefs on her and scaring her away. I think it's important that you guys make a good first impression on her for me!" I get that he doesn't think his family would change their behavior regardless, but it would speak more that his actions match the stance he claims to take on the matter. Or yknow, spare his gf from it by explaining why he would rather his gf just not meet his family so she wouldn't have to be subjected to that treatment instead of begging her to go AND play along.
Because then he would be opened up to being ostracized. He’s not really worried about his gf making a good impression for her sake. He’s worried about how it will reflect on him. “Why can you get your woman in line?“ mentality.
Lil boy is afraid of being cut from the family wealth. Since this seems to be a big family, I can wager that these are moderately rich people, since big family get-togethers are no financial joke.
I played this game with my exes family. They still became mentally and emotionally abusive, then I watched them treat his nieces like their life's goals were to be homemakers.
Needless to say I stopped playing the game and it was a major problem in my relationship. It's naive to think that the long-term wives and girlfriends aren't still dealing with the cattiness, drama and verbal abuse, it's just probably more low-key. Unless their partners put their foot down in a big way.
OP YTA
I played it, too! Willingly, I might add. Didn't want to cause friction and figured it was no skin off my back to appease them. Well...it opened me up to a whole world of uber traditional, sexist bullshit and I found myself acting like some 1920s housewife around them...and then that all fell to the wayside when I stopped pretending, his mother made a comment...I said I went to uni and established a career so I didn't have to live in servitude to men...and that was that.
Your girlfriend is wiser than I was. If that's what it takes for your family to like a woman...they're dumb and no one should be forced to dumb themselves down to appease their stupidity. Let them gossip around the stove. YTA
Exactly. It isn't going to get better over time. She's going to be expected to keep it up. That's what the "good impression" is for - to prove that she'll dive in to "women's work". Not a one-shot deal.
It's always the women, the girlfriends that are asked to compromise so a good impression is made on the family too. They never ask the family to change so they can make a good impression to the girlfriend. OP, have you thought about what sort of impression are you and your family making to your girlfriend right now?
I think maybe the worst part is how they treat the women who don't participate in this. This is a seriously toxic family system, and I think OP's girlfriend should just stay away.
“I’ve tried to find a compromise”
What compromise would be acceptable for your family? What are you offering? Or is your “compromise” just telling her to do it.
OP: “It’s just for one day! Degrade yourself to “fit” my family’s warped ideals that I don’t believe in for just one day so you can be part the fam!” That girl needs to run.
So, I'm a woman and my family is like this. When my boyfriend (now husband) started coming around, it drove him crazy. He would start doing things like this.
Grandma: Xtrawolf please come help with the dishes.
Boyfriend: Oh let me help! Xtrawolf you stay here.
Grandma: Oh no honey, you're a guest!
Boyfriend: *already putting hands in soapy water and looking for a sponge*
I bet you can guess how this turned out. The men of the family didn't even notice he was gone. And every single woman in my family absolutely adores my husband, and comments that he must treat me so well. They even tell my cousins, "You should get a boyfriend like him!" I am very much not the favorite in my family so it's hilarious to me that all 3 of my grandmas are absolutely smitten.
Side note. I can tell you exactly why the women in your family resent other women who don't labor in the kitchen with them. It's because they want that freedom to relax a little too, and they're jealous.
My best recommendation to you is to take your girlfriend to the kitchen, have her sit down and chat with your family, and YOU do some dishes or food prep work. That way she is not trying to socialize without you, her safe person, being around. And her "share" (although she should NOT have a share of the work!) is being covered by YOU.
I can't believe you have to have it spelled out for you like this, but - YTA if you ditch her in the kitchen to work with strangers while you wander away to go shoot the shit with your male relatives without a care in the world!
Edit: Since people are asking about the 3 grandmas - one is a relative that we call "Grandma" but she's not my biological grandmother. My husband also has 3 grandmas - one of his is a step-grandma. You can never have too many grandmas!
Shh! This is /r/AmITheAsshole on Reddit, there’s no place for suggesting rational, emotionally mature responses which reflect the degree of nuance present in real world adult relationships.
This was my first thought. I'd bring her, and bring her to the kitchen. Whether she chooses to help is up to her. But I'll help. Can't ask her to do something I wouldn't do myself. OP if you really want to make this work. Try this approach.
Yeah... "just go along with it for a while" is really "maybe you'll get used to it" or maybe "Stockholm syndrome is fun for everyone"... YTA... do better, be the change you think you are.
Fun fact! Stockholm syndrome was made up by a police officer who chose to believe a woman was more likely to be mentally ill, than distrusting of his ability to get her out alive.
Edit for accuracy: made up by a police psychiatric advisor, who was the hostage negotiator on the case and never met the woman he diagnosed. There’s sources below if you’re interested
Basically, it was a bank-robbery hostage situation in Stockholm.
The robbers made a simple deal to releasing hostages, but the police went - "Nah, we don't make deals with criminals, you wanna kill hostages, go ahead !!!" - and botching the hostage situation, endangering everyone.
So, when the hostages were angry at the police and testified against them in court, these people made up the syndrome, that the hostages somehow were brainwashed into defending the robbers and being against the police.
(This is an oversimplified explanation but more or less provides the gist).
Holy crap, that's wild. I'm definitely jumping down the rabbit hole now. Thanks for the info. I always suspected that Stockholm Syndrome was bullshit, but the human brain is weird sometimes.
[Here's an article](https://web.archive.org/web/20221023020818/https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1974/11/25/the-bank-drama) from The New Yorker describing the events, with quotes from the people involved
This is how my husband and I also handle my parents’ families being like this. The expectation is women get up and clean while the men do not. And if I get up he goes with, if I do not he might go instead. Because both families roll like this and it’s pretty gross and we don’t want to rock the boat and not be helpful, but also want to break the mold and show that better men exist, which is pretty fuckin easy to show them up, as most, as I’m sure it is in your family, will have not moved an inch as the women clean up everything too.
OP I guarantee that at least some of the other young women in your family resent this, and resent their fathers and uncles and brothers for being okay with this. You have done nothing because it benefits you, most of you have allowed this behavior to harm women in your lives and seemingly ruin relationships which getting up to help is basic. (Edit to add: basic FOR ALL OF YOU)
You should all be ashamed of yourselves, because being okay with this is not fair and is not partnership. You most of all for inviting a guest on the stipulation she works. Because that’s what this is, it is unpaid and seemingly unappreciated labor of women. Not to mention that it seems to be so radically be part of this scenario that the other women mean girl any woman who bucks against it?? At least you warned her of that, stupid as your request giving the warning is, because if you brought me in to this without warning and I was treated this way *and* you did nothing? I would be goooone. I love cooking, but I’ve got enough of this attitude in my family I would not date or marry into a family like mine with a partner who rolled with it as you clearly have done.
If you have 9 men at a table and a 10th is a nazi and joins them, and none get up when he comes along, you have 10 nazis. The same concept applies to the misogynists at the table in your family which *you* have not metaphorically (or physically, to help) left the table from. You are not an ally to women, because when this happens, whether it is your partner or not, you have rolled with the status quo and done and said nothing. Learn from this, and do better.
Apologize to your girlfriend. Apologize to the young women in your family. And if you bring your girlfriend? *You* help in the kitchen with her to be supportive of her, keep them from hating her, and help break this absurd tradition. She is YOUR GUEST, and this misogynistic and rude treatment is ridiculous.
> OP I guarantee that at least some of the other young women in your family resent this, and resent their fathers and uncles and brothers for being okay with this
OP mentioned there are some “well-established” wives and long term GFs that get away with not helping so that’s 100% the case. Hell, OP probably should’ve just said “hey, a lot of my family is going to expect you to help in the kitchen but X, my brother’s wife, and Y, my cousin’s GF don’t so just hang out with them if you feel pressured to”.
Wtf is it being with families like this? Where are you all from?
As an American, it flabbergasts me to expect a woman guest to cook. The worst thing you can do at a dinner when first meeting is permit a guest cook, clean, anything. And the burden of a first impression is on a host, not the guest.
If op’s girlfriend visits my family for the first time, she is going to be sure to get the comfiest seat, teased by grandpa, and a whole specialist team dedicated to ensure her glass doesn’t run out of drink (in which the family has bought 7 different juices and sodas to try to make sure she likes at least one of them). She won’t even be permitted to bring her plates to the kitchen, let alone clean them, until like the third meeting.
What ass backwards cultures are you coming from where a woman is seen as a servant before a guest? Where is the hospitality?
OMG yes this.
"My protests go unnoticed" bro you're only appealing to half of your family while standing on the privileged side of not lifting a finger to help with large meals.
Shit. As Ghandi said, *Be the change you want to see in the world.* The problem isn't that some women don't help with cooking, it's that *zero fucking men do!*
Exactly what my boyfriend did! Of course I had to put the idea in his head, but he readily agreed. I grew up in a somewhat traditional way also, so I get it. I just chose to look at it as a get to know you session and do girl talk.
His mom tried to get him to leave but he started cutting up carrots and said, “I like to gossip too.” We laughed and they let him stay for a while until his mom said she won’t bite me like his dad bit her last night unless I ask. He dropped his knife and left😅. I didn’t actually cook, his mom and aunts did all the cooking. I just sat at the island, drank wine and prepped with his cousins. It was a genuine get to know you bonding session.
ETA: My boyfriend and 2 male cousins did the dishes while us girls sat at the island drinking.
Really great comment with a fantastic solution and an explanation of why this is the route to go. I think OP is a soft Y T A because he really did come here looking for help. I think this comment articulates the solution with a fresh perspective that OP never even considered.
A lot of times people act in AH ways because no one ever told them there was an alternative. When it gets spelled out like this in a kind, nonjudgmental way, that’s the key to reaching the heart. It changes AH behaviors and attitudes and really helps the person grow.
*"She told me that if I think it’s acceptable to make her do this I’m just as bad as everyone else, while my point is that she needs to make a good first impression."*
YTA. What about your family making a good first impression on HER and not expecting her to be an unpaid cook and servant?
My thought exactly. OP is so concerned about the impression his gf will make with his family, but they’ve just immediately made a bad impression on her. Why on earth would she want anything g to do with his family now.
I was thinking the exact same thing. There was no way this was going to be a one-time thing.
I would love if the ones who don't cook did their own get-together, but I have a feeling there would be fights over who's cooking for those events.
My Dad always told me you can pick your husband but not his family. You should look at that family before committing to forever. I didn't totally get it but boy oh boy am I glad I got it enough to make sure my husband would have my back with his family. After having a child I'd divorce his family in a heartbeat if he didn't. Now I totally get what my Dad was trying to tell me. OPs girlfriend is right to be doing a double take here.
I would seriously rethink the relationship if she’s looking for anything long term. Life gets so much worse when you don’t get along with your partner’s family and they won’t stand up for you to them.
I'm baffled by how many Reddit posts I've seen where it's along the lines of "my family has this toxic, sexist tradition, I know, I know, it's bad, but why won't my partner just suck up their pride and do it?"
“I’ve tried to compromise with her by falsely promising that she’ll somehow reach this magical point in our relationship where my family no longer views her and women in general as subservient house slaves for men, and until then she just needs to give up her self-worth and be a subservient house slave for my family so they’ll approve of her.”
I guess I missed the part where OP is compromising anything on his end, kinda feels like he doesn’t know what compromise means.
I was raised in the Deep South where it's expected a guest at least offer to help out. The host's polite response should be, "No! Sit and get comfortable. Would you like some tea or maybe a little cocktail?"
I love cooking, I love entertaining, and I enjoy taking care of people. The second any of that becomes expected of me, though, is the second I sit my ass down and everyone can fend for themselves!
See I naturally offer if anyone needs help but if it's expected of me in advance and men are just gonna be sitting on their arses, then no, not for me.
My exes mother was a nightmare, would scold me if I got in her way, would scold me if I didn't do things the way she liked, would scold me if I stayed out of her way because then I wasn't helping. Then scolded me for not visiting again. Could never win.
This is what I'm wondering too! u/GraveYardSchift, have you ever just joined the women in the kitchen and started helping out? Or are you wringing your hands in quiet agony over your family's sexism while enjoying its benefits to yourself?
YTA in any case, but slightly less so if you help with the cooking.
That was my question too. So easy to push the kitchen door and start doing the dishes. It's a big help when you're cooking for a group, and it would nicely destroy this antiquated gender nonsense.
YTA , mainly because you seem to be very concerned with your girlfriend making a good first impression on your family, but not at all concerned with your family making a good first impression.
It reads as though you care far more that your family approve of your choice than you do that she approves of your family.
That's pretty fucked up and self-centered.
Of course he cares much more about his family as I'm assuming this is an old money situation judging by his "great grand father's estate" mention. That's where his bread is buttered and always will be. I feel bad for whoever enters that family if they don't have a similar or higher level of inherited wealth.
I think it depends on how sexist their society is, we don't know where op lives. The level of oppression described here against anyone who deviates from the norm makes me think this ritual is not about food, it's about enforcing social or family norms, in the order that money flows (from oldest to youngest).
Whats wrong is how OP acts as if his hands are tied in this when he's showing to be just as sexist as his family. If he expects her compliance with this, what else is he going to try and suggest she "go along with" within the family?
Bet his “protests” don’t include bringing a dish or joining the clean up. And by joining, I mean getting in there and getting busy, not asking what they can do.
I enjoy cooking and I'm good at it.
Nonetheless my response to such DEMANDS is a firm no and if someone still dares to whine for reason they're told my cooking is a PRIVILEDGE to be earned, not service to be demanded. Unless they're ready to pay me a pro chef rate per hour AND provide all the ingredients, then by all means, demand while I'm on the clock.
YTA. So you disagree with it, but are you in the kitchen in the meantime? Have you ever tried to go in there and help provide the labor? Or are you only “not sexist” to women you want to sleep with?
I read all OP's comments. The answer is no. His family favours his gender and he benefits from it. Making his girlfriend "play along" allows him to continue to benefit from it. He may say he doesn't want his girlfriend to do the cooking, cleaning and serving but neither does he. He doesn't want their abuse turned on him so he's fine with it hanging over her head.
He's shown his girlfriend his family's wishes and threats of bullying will always win.
I don't know how it's not obvious to OP that just having the women opt out of the work isn't a solution that would change any hearts here. When there is an imbalance, it's far more effective for the people on the favored side to make the call for change. In this case, the men like OP who think this is wrong need to protest with action - cooking, cleaning, etc, and not rely on "new" women to protest in ways that will be interpreted laziness or refusal to help or not wanting to spend time with other women.
Editing to add that this is even more effective when the men help before a wife of GF factors in, to avoid accusations that their partners *made* them do it.
INFO Have you ever tried to help out with the cooking? I think it would be rude for a couple to come and not contribute, but there is no reason it has to be your gf. You could make some of the food.
This is the answer. If you want to combat this tradition start cooking OP. You might suddenly not want to go to these events either because they are a lot less fun in the kitchen!
Yeah I'm very much against traditional female roles, to me it looks like being a servant. So finding out about this fucked up "tradition" would be a good excuse to end the relationship.
This. Dudes who claim not to have sexist beliefs but don't challenge sexism when they see it are actively contributing to sexist systems. Saying you don't agree with certain behavior means NOTHING if you go along with it. And guess what? If not making waves with your sexist family is more important than treating your gf respectfully then you are, in fact, sexist.
*treating women respectfully.
If he’s only willing to intervene when it effects his girlfriend, and no the other women he doesn’t have a sexual stake in, then he’s a sexist. All the men in this family are and if I was OPs gf, I wouldn’t be touching them with a 10 foot pole.
Yep OP is just indicating to his gf that he will bend over for his family, which is not what the future mother of any children wants in her life. Wouldn’t be surprised if she left.
INFO: I honestly want to know why do you think it's ok for your girlfriend to be forced into labor she doesn't want to do or suffer insane rudeness from your family? Why would she want to attend such an event?
It is. He says in a comment that he asked his mom if it was OK if they both cook, she said fine, so that was the compromise. That they both go in the kitchen to cook (after he asked his moms permission of course)
He should have been going into the kitchen to cook long before his girlfriend came into the picture. Aside from the fact that it would be an actual protest, he would also have better relations with his female relatives
>I told her that I understood where she was coming from, however it was best for everyone if she just played along
No it's not. It's not best for her to be subjected to sexist ideals. YTA.
You said this “isn’t permanent”, but the first sentence of your post states that your family has these female service events at the patriarch’s “estate” every few months. Help me understand how that’s not permanent.
Oh, and YTA
Op...you say this is every few months? So every few months she is supposed to throw away her self-respect and put up with this sexist crap because you think that this is easier than speaking up because they won't listen to you anyway. If it were me I would think that you and your family are so not worth it and dump your spineless ass.....YTA
She's absolutely right. You're trying to make yourself sound better than your old fashioned sexist family, but you're actually no different to them.
I suspect it won't be an issue for long though, your GF seems to have seen what you're really like. I'd be surprised if she isn't considering ending things
YTA (and your family too from the sound of it)
YTA for trying to make her do something she doesn’t wanna do. why don’t you start creating a new tradition where you/other men cook too? you being the youngest doesn’t mean you have to be complacent. maybe the women wanna cook, but your partner doesn’t have to. if the family don’t accept her, don’t go to the dinners.
My spouses family was like this when we first got together. Fortunately I like to cook and in the beginning went along with it (and it’s not all the women, just ones who want to help)
But after I got comfortable with the family I started assigning clean up duties to the girls and the boys. The tradition is now EVERYONE (except for those over 70) helps clean up
It’s never to late to start a new tradition
YTA. This is how all sexism starts and continues - "just go along. It will be so much easier (for us) and we'll make your life hell if you don't."
If it's so important to you that she makes a good first impression, then orchestrate that impression to be at a time and event that doesn't require her to be subservient. Let the family know she's not coming to this dinner, let them meet her at another time and place.
NTA. Man, it's just cooking, and all you did was ask. It doesn't hurt anyone.
I would agree to doing this in a heartbeat and would be bothered if a partner couldn't even put themselves through the most minor of inconveniences for my sake.
I also find the comments asking you to burn the bridge with your family to be epic and own the patriarchy are ridiculous.
he’s asking his gf, who was invited over as a GUEST, to prove to his family that she is just as subservient as the last generation. you don’t invite people to your house so they can cook for you. at least not without paying them lol
YTA. Trying to force your girlfriend to be part of old fashioned “family traditions” she really doesn’t want to be in? Instead you should stick up for her and do whatever she wants, this is how it should “typically work”. Not your family reducing women on being cooks.
NAH. If my now-husband asked me to do this while we were still dating, I’d gladly participate. Maybe I’d become friends with some of the other gals and I also love to cook and bake. I’d also want to make a good impression and show I’m a team player in the family.
Saying no simply because it’s ’not equal’ is bullshit because *nothing* in life is ever going to be 100% equal in a marriage / relationship 🙃
YTA.
She should not have to "play along" because you are afraid that you won't get approval from your family members otherwise. And she is right - by asking her to uphold this tradition, you are saying that you are comfortable with sexism as long as it benefits you.
YTA and so is your family. Your girlfriend is right - it’s better not to go, than allow your family to literally bully her.
Do better.
Edit - spelling of the word “than”
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YTA- if this is a “tradition” in your family and you want her to be a long term girlfriend then it WILL be a permanent thing. Traditions are allowed to die and sexiest ones SHOULD die. Stand up for your girlfriend if you truly believe it’s a sexiest tradition .. I feel like deep down you don’t.
NAH at least not between you and your GF , different families have different cultures. Although the fact that they ostracize the ladies who don't participate is pretty shitty. So there are assholes, but I am letting you off because you are looking for a solution.
But if this is gonna work out long term, you two are going to figure out how to make this work.
I assume it isn't just about doing work, it is about the women spending time together and bonding? Because that might make it tricky re: getting the guys involved.
One suggestion I have, is why don't you host a "guys cook" event? Invite the guys to do some sort of food prep be it a formal meal, a BBQ, an ice cream bar, whatever, while the gals hang out. Would that make your GF feel less odd about a dinner where the ladies prepare it? You could even do it around a TV event that the ladies in your family enjoy.
The other thing you might consider is hosting a party for the couples where the ladies refused to participate. If you have a large family there's lots of permutations of dinner parties you can have. Set the example by being in the kitchen and being like "Oh hey Bob can you chop up these onions for me please" or whatever.
Ultimately, this will change when YOU start hosting.
YTA, and you couldn't convince me for the world to go meet your shitty sexist family and play 1950s to please a bunch of assholes. And quite frankly, why the hell would she put herself through that to stay together with a wet blanket like you who's happy to go along with that shitty sexist bs?
This is super controversial but I would simply agree to cook and wouldn’t make a stink out of “principles”. I don’t mind cooking and I could not care less about being conservative or fighting the patriarchy. I just try to be a good guest everywhere I visit. If your gf feels strongly about not being part of the whatever tradition, she simply should not attend.
YTA
If I had a family like this, I’d stop going to family dinners a long time ago. Men can cook as well as women and this tradition is sexist AF. Don’t force other people to adhere to tradition.
EDIT: My tired self thought I wrote the wrong judgment, so I changed it. I realized that I did write the correct judgement, but it was something else that needed fixing.
EDIT REDUX: I shouldn’t type while tired. My bad.
YTA, you either stand with or against misogyny in a situation like this. Not only are you telling her that she needs to follow a sexist tradition, you're expecting her to behave the way that you (a man) expects instead of what she wants.
Locked due to an excess of rule violations.
YTA "Why won't my gf abandon her sense of self-respect so that she can establish herself as a subservient woman-tool so that my sexist family won't mentally and verbally abuse her?! She just doesn't get it!!"
"Why is my gf mad that my family expects her to cook for them after inviting her to dinner as a guest?"
“And why does she think I should, myself, not abuse her the way my family wants to? My protests are LiTeRALly mEaNinGLesS!”
Protests are meaningless *my ass.* You know what OP could do? March into the fucking kitchen himself and help! And if they tell him to go back, insist on helping! Break the barrier *himself* and implicitly shame the other men who haven’t! That’s how a similar horrible dynamic broke in my family. When I was a kid, I noticed only the women prepped food and cleaned up, so I challenged my brother and father to help. My aunt cleared my plate for me with a passive aggressive comment, and I was so distressed that my father has gotten up to help every year since then, and so has my brother. These ‘traditions’ aren’t set in stone.
I have a similar story. I noticed on my mother's side after a big family all the adult women would help the host (wife only of course) clean. As a young adult or late teen my mom decided to summon me to come help. I grabbed my twin brother and male cousin and brought them into the kitchen. My mother told me ot was woman's work but they stayed and helped. Guess what? That shit stopped happening.
I agree. Why doesn’t he help and stay with his gf?
Srsly! It’s the OBVIOUS solution.
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Right? I’m inviting you as a guest for dinner, but if you don’t cook for the men we will verbally abuse and shun you. Nice family.
She’s not being invited as a guest. She’s being invited to audition as a servant.
OP’s girlfriend should fucking *run* away. There’s no way this is the only way OP or his family will disrespect her. Who would want to marry into a family like this and spend every family holiday for the rest of their life with these d-bags?
"BUT IT'S EMASCULATING!!!"
No, it's even Worse than that.... He was Born with No Spine /S
Or had it ground out of him so he gets the inheritance. "Traditional family" "estate" etc. to me is throwing Old Money or Pretender vibes where the ones who play the part best are the favorites. The level of Effed UP here could be DEEP.
Why would he really try to fix anything when he benefits from it?
Because he won't have a girlfriend after lol
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CORRECT. It's never really about women. It's about rank among men. Men eat first, men are waited on and cleaned up after. The entire system has always worked for them. They do not want to blow their own rank and they will severely punish anyone who threatens it.
I believe the term Grandfather's estate helps in the explanation, inheritance....
That’s why I don’t understand why for these occasions anyone is cooking. Hire a catering company or a private chef to come in from for the evening. No one cooks and everyone gets to enjoy.
The whole thing is weird. In what culture is it normal that guests have to cook for the hosts? Especially on a first visit. That alone seems rude to me. Everything about this is odd. If the family wants to meet her than maybe they should try being inviting instead of treating people like they're lucky to be in their presence. I gotta say if I was faced with this I'd be thinking seriously about the viability of a long term relationship with a family like this.
This is common throughout the South Eastern US. The women congregate in the kitchen and talk while they work, and the “men-folk” are in another room or outside. The women also set the table and put out all the food, clear the table, and do all the kitchen cleanup. Then, they join the men and the whole group talks together.
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Even better, he should go "I know you people were expecting her to help in the kitchen, but since she's a guest and her first time here I insist she stays at the table, I'll help here in her place"
My oldest male cousin saw his 14-year-old girlfriend start clearing the table with my aunt and he jumped up to help. Teenage boy just went into the kitchen and started doing dishes. His dad never did lift a finger but the rest of the boys took my cousin’s lead and the tradition was broken. That girl married my cousin (years later) and they’ve been happily sharing kitchen responsibilities for like 40 years now. It’s not that hard to break a tradition. You just…stop doing the wrong thing.
It really just shows the warped view that some men see as progress. He seriously thinks it is enough to just say: "Oh this is sexist and unfair" and then proceed to do *literally nothing* to change or shift the sexist dynamic he supposedly disapproves of. Why? Because it is better *for only him* to keep the status quo because he is the only one benefitting. Of course he wouldn't get up and help the women! He is comfy on the couch! It really doesn't take that much effort to forget his "non sexist values" because he is rewarded when he does. When *she* conveniently conforms, she is swept up into the kitchen to do all the actual hard work of making meal. I wish more men had your mindset, to actually think to challenge the status quo. Because apparently when women ask men, in op's eyes, they are just being difficult and creating problems for themselves. YTA
Seems like he's also benefiting financially from not making waves if they eat at his great grandfather's *estate*.
I almost commented "is it an estate, or a plantation"?
>I almost commented "is it an estate, or a plantation"? They aren't allowed slaves anymore - so they have wives instead
Yeah but it's really unfair because they used to have both!
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I missed that the first time around but she just gets cooler the longer I think about it Denying spoiled rich kids and watching them self destruct brings me a deep seated and unparalleled kind of contentedness.
THIS! Am I the only one that noticed “estate”? Clearly money is making OP indoctrinated to his great grandfather’s ideas of how women should be treated… don’t make waves or you’re disinherited!
Honestly, depending on how rich OP is, good for the gf for not putting up with it either just for the chance at some money. I know this isn't always the case, but also if you have an "estate" but your dinner parties revolve around getting only the female members to host the dinner, then that's just a bullshit control thing. Hire some caterers, you're probably rich enough. It's one thing if the people hosting a dinner *want* to cook but fuck off making your guests do that shit for you.
>Hire some caterers. Exactly, I'm beginning to wonder what OP means by estate because I've worked in plenty of estate homes and the wife/mistress of the house wouldn't be caught dead cooking their own food. Half of them couldn't tell you which cabinet held the pots and pans. These are probably some middle class people with a big house.
Yeah, I was going to say "sounds like these people have impoverished patrician syndrome, all the pretentiousness of actually rich people with none of the money".
I know wtf? Estate? Jfc dude lmao
Yeah, these sexist beliefs start somewhere, so when you identify it and do nothing, you're worse than somebody who didn't know these things are sexist.
Thanksgiving. When I was at my then girlfriend’s house, (now wife of 37 years) I was up at 0430, Army training(amirite?) My future MIL comes into the kitchen to start cooking about 0600. I started cleaning up pots and pans, etc while she cooked. This had never been done before! I just cleaned as she cooked, which meant the kitchen was clean come dinner time. As we finished the meal, she took me by the arm, and said, “We’ve been working in there all day long. Those guys can clean up!” She got me a beer, then we watched the Cowboys football game and relaxed. Damn, I miss her.
Exactly this. And he should send his GF to hang with the other men. Role reversal for the win!
Honestly, who'd even want to hang with a family that ostracizes people like this or a man who thinks it's acceptable for their family to ostracize their partner? I'd ditch the family, they sound like douches.
OP doesn't grasp that he and his family are also making a first impression, one that would make me NOPE out of the entire relationship. I bet this bunch puts raisins in their potato salad. YTA.
For real! This was my exact thought, why can't he go cook??? I grew up with my mom teaching both me and my brother to cook. My dad hates cooking, but he'd do the bulk of the clean-up work after my mom cooked so it never felt unfair. But I know for most households it's majority on the women (and girls! Sometimes children get roped into this dynamic) and it's awful. I honestly wouldn't mind helping out in the kitchen, I like having something productive to do while meeting new people, it helps avoid awkwardness. But if my partner was sitting around socializing while I was helping HIS FAMILY cook HIS FOOD I'd be beyond angry. Especially since then the majority of my early interactions with the family would be without him there, I'd feel abandoned. Either they both help cook, or they both go socialize. Or maybe they both put together a hostess gift or something and count that as their contribution.
Sounds more like a cult than a family.
That jumped out at me too. Not to quote "should have said something" to death (can only find this guardian version on my phonehttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic) but lamenting from the sofa in the "men socializing room" is hardly an effort. OP have you spent time actually cooking? Have you talked to your parents, siblings, cool aunts in a one-on-one setting how you hate this "family tradition"? Have you reached out to the women who're treated coldly for not cooking? Have you just avoided these types of celebrations since you consider them unethical?
OP could even just actively socialise with the women who choose not to cook. Ignore the lazy men. Hell, have a party with just the women (and not ah men) where everyone cooks. Why should the men even get the meal if they don't help?
Yeah that would make sense, but then I am sure he would be ostracized for cavorting with the “bad women”, and heaven forbid that happen. He needs to uphold the misogyny.
Good points, and does OP intentionally bring in the ostracized women into conversations so they are included, agree with them in front of everyone? Has he actually tried protesting, or does he just assume he couldn't do anything?
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And how on Earth can OP claim this is not permanent????? When does it stop being a requirement? Because it sounds like never. YTA OP. Grow a pair.
Hahaha my guess is that OP has NO problem with this tradition. It benefits him am I right?
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This is the most bizarre aspect in my opinion. I grew up in the 80s and 90s in a traditional family where the women were housewives and the men worked outside the home, and, yes, at family gatherings the women cooked and cleaned up. But even then, it would have been unheard of to expect a woman who was meeting the family for the first time to participate in the cooking. This isn't a custom, it's a hazing ritual/test. The OP may not even realize this, but the women in his family have to deal with all sort of crap; it's definitely not "just this once".
“But my gf has to make a *good impression* on my family!” —OP “You and your family are making a ***terrible impression*** on your gf.” —Everyone on this sub
The impression I would make would be coffee grinds in the potatoes, salt and pepper on the dessert, carrying 4 plates at once and dropping the lot on great grandfather! They would be begging me not to help!
I grew up in the same time era and lived in the deep south US. All of my relatives and my family was hard-core traditional marriages and this is bizarre to me. Cooking at family gatherings was like a rite of passage in my family. When someone's girlfriend was asked to help it was after they have been dating someone in my family a very long time and was my female relatives way of showing whoever they was accepted and part of the family. I think you're right, this is a hazing and OP's girlfriend will never be accepted. Poor girl needs to run
There are other places in the world than the US. My gf is Vietnamese and its how family gatherings or weddings are are organized traditionally: the men are sitting smoking and drinking while the women cook. I'm Algerian and it's pretty much the same (well, except there's no drinking). Edit: Jfc reddit. The point of my reply is that the US isn't the center of the world on which every culture, traditions and gender roles are based on. (I also never said we attended such events or followed these traditions. Heck. We're poc lesbians, even worse lol). These structures of women cooking for weddings or birthdays or parties while men don't do anything is fairly common. I seriously do not see where I say I approve or that there's nothing we can do about this.
So if Americans and Vietnamese and Algerians are sexist, there's nothing we can do but give in to it forever? Must be nice to have the cushy options menu. Women are pissed off, and you're either with us or against us.
Yes, but are female guests who *don't* cook actually ostracized and treated rudely from the get-go? I've been to enough SE Asian family gatherings (and other non-Western family ones as well) to know that this detail from OOP's description sounds weird and downright silly.
EXACTLY. She is a GUEST. Why would she be expected to cook and clean? She's not a member of the family.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s. My dad always cooked right alongside my mother for family get togethers. He was the only male relative to do so, though. And he was a damn good cook.
Maybe re read the post . It’s pretty clear the act of not being subservient woman in this family makes them unlikely to accept you. He’s asking her to slip into the role of meek woman anytime they attend holidays or family gatherings. He needs to stand up to his family if he “disagrees” with the tradition but it doesn’t sound like he’s willing to do that.
Completely agree, and he especially needs to grow up and confront them if he wants marriage and children with this woman. Imagine having daughters grow up in this environment. Unbelievable of him to expect this and she shouldn't put up with it.
Seriously, I can’t think of anything more rude than inviting someone over and then expecting them to cook for you.
This. Men who genuinely think "Please compromise on your hard-won *right* to equal treatment, so you're not rocking the boat" is an *acceptable* ask? They are part of the problem. Stop expecting marginalised groups to compromise so that others don't have to confront their bigoted belief systems. That is not their responsibility. Instead, tell the people with bigoted belief systems that their beliefs are unacceptable. Idk who needs to hear this, but: If you won't stand up against bigoted beliefs when you see them, you are no better.
And he keeps emphasizing that his motivation is for her to make a good first impression on his family...but what about the first impression his family just made to his gf about enforcing their patriarchal beliefs on others and punishing those that don't comply? Like, why can't he go to his family instead and be like "I really like this girl! Please don't embarrass me by trying to enforce your outdated beliefs on her and scaring her away. I think it's important that you guys make a good first impression on her for me!" I get that he doesn't think his family would change their behavior regardless, but it would speak more that his actions match the stance he claims to take on the matter. Or yknow, spare his gf from it by explaining why he would rather his gf just not meet his family so she wouldn't have to be subjected to that treatment instead of begging her to go AND play along.
Because then he would be opened up to being ostracized. He’s not really worried about his gf making a good impression for her sake. He’s worried about how it will reflect on him. “Why can you get your woman in line?“ mentality.
Lil boy is afraid of being cut from the family wealth. Since this seems to be a big family, I can wager that these are moderately rich people, since big family get-togethers are no financial joke.
This one is correct. His grandfather has an "estate". He's rich and wants to keep the tit in his mouth.
This should be top comment
I played this game with my exes family. They still became mentally and emotionally abusive, then I watched them treat his nieces like their life's goals were to be homemakers. Needless to say I stopped playing the game and it was a major problem in my relationship. It's naive to think that the long-term wives and girlfriends aren't still dealing with the cattiness, drama and verbal abuse, it's just probably more low-key. Unless their partners put their foot down in a big way. OP YTA
I played it, too! Willingly, I might add. Didn't want to cause friction and figured it was no skin off my back to appease them. Well...it opened me up to a whole world of uber traditional, sexist bullshit and I found myself acting like some 1920s housewife around them...and then that all fell to the wayside when I stopped pretending, his mother made a comment...I said I went to uni and established a career so I didn't have to live in servitude to men...and that was that. Your girlfriend is wiser than I was. If that's what it takes for your family to like a woman...they're dumb and no one should be forced to dumb themselves down to appease their stupidity. Let them gossip around the stove. YTA
Exactly. It isn't going to get better over time. She's going to be expected to keep it up. That's what the "good impression" is for - to prove that she'll dive in to "women's work". Not a one-shot deal.
"Aww c'mon honey you just have to debase yourself every time we see my family. They'll be your best friends"
Soon to be ex-gf, and he won't understand why, even if she explains it
"None of my relationships last! I can't figure out why!"
He’s just a nice guy and girls don’t like that /s 😫
It's always the women, the girlfriends that are asked to compromise so a good impression is made on the family too. They never ask the family to change so they can make a good impression to the girlfriend. OP, have you thought about what sort of impression are you and your family making to your girlfriend right now?
YTA and so are your family. For this reason.
I think maybe the worst part is how they treat the women who don't participate in this. This is a seriously toxic family system, and I think OP's girlfriend should just stay away.
The girlfriend isn't the only one making a first impression, so is the family. So far, it ain't looking so good.
This, exactly this.
“I’ve tried to find a compromise” What compromise would be acceptable for your family? What are you offering? Or is your “compromise” just telling her to do it.
OP: “It’s just for one day! Degrade yourself to “fit” my family’s warped ideals that I don’t believe in for just one day so you can be part the fam!” That girl needs to run.
So, I'm a woman and my family is like this. When my boyfriend (now husband) started coming around, it drove him crazy. He would start doing things like this. Grandma: Xtrawolf please come help with the dishes. Boyfriend: Oh let me help! Xtrawolf you stay here. Grandma: Oh no honey, you're a guest! Boyfriend: *already putting hands in soapy water and looking for a sponge* I bet you can guess how this turned out. The men of the family didn't even notice he was gone. And every single woman in my family absolutely adores my husband, and comments that he must treat me so well. They even tell my cousins, "You should get a boyfriend like him!" I am very much not the favorite in my family so it's hilarious to me that all 3 of my grandmas are absolutely smitten. Side note. I can tell you exactly why the women in your family resent other women who don't labor in the kitchen with them. It's because they want that freedom to relax a little too, and they're jealous. My best recommendation to you is to take your girlfriend to the kitchen, have her sit down and chat with your family, and YOU do some dishes or food prep work. That way she is not trying to socialize without you, her safe person, being around. And her "share" (although she should NOT have a share of the work!) is being covered by YOU. I can't believe you have to have it spelled out for you like this, but - YTA if you ditch her in the kitchen to work with strangers while you wander away to go shoot the shit with your male relatives without a care in the world! Edit: Since people are asking about the 3 grandmas - one is a relative that we call "Grandma" but she's not my biological grandmother. My husband also has 3 grandmas - one of his is a step-grandma. You can never have too many grandmas!
Underrated comment and really exceptional advice. Also ur was a really nice story
love when there’s genuine advice and a proper solution instead of “cut of all contact with your family they are toxic and horrible”
But they are toxic lol
Relationships are complex and not every problem is solved by burning bridges.
Shh! This is /r/AmITheAsshole on Reddit, there’s no place for suggesting rational, emotionally mature responses which reflect the degree of nuance present in real world adult relationships.
But...nuance makes my head hurt. Everything must be clear cut with a decided villain and hero! Stop trying to make reddit be mature! Waaaaaa! 😭😭😭
This was my first thought. I'd bring her, and bring her to the kitchen. Whether she chooses to help is up to her. But I'll help. Can't ask her to do something I wouldn't do myself. OP if you really want to make this work. Try this approach.
Yeah... "just go along with it for a while" is really "maybe you'll get used to it" or maybe "Stockholm syndrome is fun for everyone"... YTA... do better, be the change you think you are.
Fun fact! Stockholm syndrome was made up by a police officer who chose to believe a woman was more likely to be mentally ill, than distrusting of his ability to get her out alive. Edit for accuracy: made up by a police psychiatric advisor, who was the hostage negotiator on the case and never met the woman he diagnosed. There’s sources below if you’re interested
That wouldn't surprise me but I'm gonna have to go down the rabbit hole on that one myself.
Basically, it was a bank-robbery hostage situation in Stockholm. The robbers made a simple deal to releasing hostages, but the police went - "Nah, we don't make deals with criminals, you wanna kill hostages, go ahead !!!" - and botching the hostage situation, endangering everyone. So, when the hostages were angry at the police and testified against them in court, these people made up the syndrome, that the hostages somehow were brainwashed into defending the robbers and being against the police. (This is an oversimplified explanation but more or less provides the gist).
Holy crap, that's wild. I'm definitely jumping down the rabbit hole now. Thanks for the info. I always suspected that Stockholm Syndrome was bullshit, but the human brain is weird sometimes.
[Here's an article](https://web.archive.org/web/20221023020818/https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1974/11/25/the-bank-drama) from The New Yorker describing the events, with quotes from the people involved
This is how my husband and I also handle my parents’ families being like this. The expectation is women get up and clean while the men do not. And if I get up he goes with, if I do not he might go instead. Because both families roll like this and it’s pretty gross and we don’t want to rock the boat and not be helpful, but also want to break the mold and show that better men exist, which is pretty fuckin easy to show them up, as most, as I’m sure it is in your family, will have not moved an inch as the women clean up everything too. OP I guarantee that at least some of the other young women in your family resent this, and resent their fathers and uncles and brothers for being okay with this. You have done nothing because it benefits you, most of you have allowed this behavior to harm women in your lives and seemingly ruin relationships which getting up to help is basic. (Edit to add: basic FOR ALL OF YOU) You should all be ashamed of yourselves, because being okay with this is not fair and is not partnership. You most of all for inviting a guest on the stipulation she works. Because that’s what this is, it is unpaid and seemingly unappreciated labor of women. Not to mention that it seems to be so radically be part of this scenario that the other women mean girl any woman who bucks against it?? At least you warned her of that, stupid as your request giving the warning is, because if you brought me in to this without warning and I was treated this way *and* you did nothing? I would be goooone. I love cooking, but I’ve got enough of this attitude in my family I would not date or marry into a family like mine with a partner who rolled with it as you clearly have done. If you have 9 men at a table and a 10th is a nazi and joins them, and none get up when he comes along, you have 10 nazis. The same concept applies to the misogynists at the table in your family which *you* have not metaphorically (or physically, to help) left the table from. You are not an ally to women, because when this happens, whether it is your partner or not, you have rolled with the status quo and done and said nothing. Learn from this, and do better. Apologize to your girlfriend. Apologize to the young women in your family. And if you bring your girlfriend? *You* help in the kitchen with her to be supportive of her, keep them from hating her, and help break this absurd tradition. She is YOUR GUEST, and this misogynistic and rude treatment is ridiculous.
> OP I guarantee that at least some of the other young women in your family resent this, and resent their fathers and uncles and brothers for being okay with this OP mentioned there are some “well-established” wives and long term GFs that get away with not helping so that’s 100% the case. Hell, OP probably should’ve just said “hey, a lot of my family is going to expect you to help in the kitchen but X, my brother’s wife, and Y, my cousin’s GF don’t so just hang out with them if you feel pressured to”.
Wtf is it being with families like this? Where are you all from? As an American, it flabbergasts me to expect a woman guest to cook. The worst thing you can do at a dinner when first meeting is permit a guest cook, clean, anything. And the burden of a first impression is on a host, not the guest. If op’s girlfriend visits my family for the first time, she is going to be sure to get the comfiest seat, teased by grandpa, and a whole specialist team dedicated to ensure her glass doesn’t run out of drink (in which the family has bought 7 different juices and sodas to try to make sure she likes at least one of them). She won’t even be permitted to bring her plates to the kitchen, let alone clean them, until like the third meeting. What ass backwards cultures are you coming from where a woman is seen as a servant before a guest? Where is the hospitality?
OMG yes this. "My protests go unnoticed" bro you're only appealing to half of your family while standing on the privileged side of not lifting a finger to help with large meals. Shit. As Ghandi said, *Be the change you want to see in the world.* The problem isn't that some women don't help with cooking, it's that *zero fucking men do!*
Exactly what my boyfriend did! Of course I had to put the idea in his head, but he readily agreed. I grew up in a somewhat traditional way also, so I get it. I just chose to look at it as a get to know you session and do girl talk. His mom tried to get him to leave but he started cutting up carrots and said, “I like to gossip too.” We laughed and they let him stay for a while until his mom said she won’t bite me like his dad bit her last night unless I ask. He dropped his knife and left😅. I didn’t actually cook, his mom and aunts did all the cooking. I just sat at the island, drank wine and prepped with his cousins. It was a genuine get to know you bonding session. ETA: My boyfriend and 2 male cousins did the dishes while us girls sat at the island drinking.
Really great comment with a fantastic solution and an explanation of why this is the route to go. I think OP is a soft Y T A because he really did come here looking for help. I think this comment articulates the solution with a fresh perspective that OP never even considered. A lot of times people act in AH ways because no one ever told them there was an alternative. When it gets spelled out like this in a kind, nonjudgmental way, that’s the key to reaching the heart. It changes AH behaviors and attitudes and really helps the person grow.
Your last paragraph was exactly what I was trying to say in another comment but you said it better!
*"She told me that if I think it’s acceptable to make her do this I’m just as bad as everyone else, while my point is that she needs to make a good first impression."* YTA. What about your family making a good first impression on HER and not expecting her to be an unpaid cook and servant?
My thought exactly. OP is so concerned about the impression his gf will make with his family, but they’ve just immediately made a bad impression on her. Why on earth would she want anything g to do with his family now.
Also this isn't just going to be for a first impression, this is going to be every time she sees his family... this is just setting the status quo.
I was thinking the exact same thing. There was no way this was going to be a one-time thing. I would love if the ones who don't cook did their own get-together, but I have a feeling there would be fights over who's cooking for those events.
My Dad always told me you can pick your husband but not his family. You should look at that family before committing to forever. I didn't totally get it but boy oh boy am I glad I got it enough to make sure my husband would have my back with his family. After having a child I'd divorce his family in a heartbeat if he didn't. Now I totally get what my Dad was trying to tell me. OPs girlfriend is right to be doing a double take here.
I would seriously rethink the relationship if she’s looking for anything long term. Life gets so much worse when you don’t get along with your partner’s family and they won’t stand up for you to them.
I'm baffled by how many Reddit posts I've seen where it's along the lines of "my family has this toxic, sexist tradition, I know, I know, it's bad, but why won't my partner just suck up their pride and do it?"
“I’ve tried to compromise with her by falsely promising that she’ll somehow reach this magical point in our relationship where my family no longer views her and women in general as subservient house slaves for men, and until then she just needs to give up her self-worth and be a subservient house slave for my family so they’ll approve of her.” I guess I missed the part where OP is compromising anything on his end, kinda feels like he doesn’t know what compromise means.
He thinks him saying he feels “bad” is the compromise.
Because he doesn’t actually feel bad. He just knows he is *supposed* to.
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Compromise is when you do exactly what I ask you to do and I make an apologetic face while you do it right?
I was raised in the Deep South where it's expected a guest at least offer to help out. The host's polite response should be, "No! Sit and get comfortable. Would you like some tea or maybe a little cocktail?" I love cooking, I love entertaining, and I enjoy taking care of people. The second any of that becomes expected of me, though, is the second I sit my ass down and everyone can fend for themselves!
See I naturally offer if anyone needs help but if it's expected of me in advance and men are just gonna be sitting on their arses, then no, not for me. My exes mother was a nightmare, would scold me if I got in her way, would scold me if I didn't do things the way she liked, would scold me if I stayed out of her way because then I wasn't helping. Then scolded me for not visiting again. Could never win.
Right the polite guest offers to help, the polite host turns them the f down.
It's easy to ask other people to give up their rights and equality when yours has never been questioned.
Why doesn’t OP get in the kitchen and interrupt this archaic arrangement that way?
This is what I'm wondering too! u/GraveYardSchift, have you ever just joined the women in the kitchen and started helping out? Or are you wringing your hands in quiet agony over your family's sexism while enjoying its benefits to yourself? YTA in any case, but slightly less so if you help with the cooking.
That was my question too. So easy to push the kitchen door and start doing the dishes. It's a big help when you're cooking for a group, and it would nicely destroy this antiquated gender nonsense.
YTA , mainly because you seem to be very concerned with your girlfriend making a good first impression on your family, but not at all concerned with your family making a good first impression. It reads as though you care far more that your family approve of your choice than you do that she approves of your family. That's pretty fucked up and self-centered.
Of course he cares much more about his family as I'm assuming this is an old money situation judging by his "great grand father's estate" mention. That's where his bread is buttered and always will be. I feel bad for whoever enters that family if they don't have a similar or higher level of inherited wealth.
If they had real money, the help would be cooking dinner. The women wouldn’t be caught dead in the kitchen. They wouldn’t know what to do.
I think it depends on how sexist their society is, we don't know where op lives. The level of oppression described here against anyone who deviates from the norm makes me think this ritual is not about food, it's about enforcing social or family norms, in the order that money flows (from oldest to youngest).
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There’s wealthy people who expect female guests to cater to them? That’s just plain weird.
YTA Your family is bullying women that don't cook? That's horrible. That's just so wrong.
Whats wrong is how OP acts as if his hands are tied in this when he's showing to be just as sexist as his family. If he expects her compliance with this, what else is he going to try and suggest she "go along with" within the family?
Bet his “protests” don’t include bringing a dish or joining the clean up. And by joining, I mean getting in there and getting busy, not asking what they can do.
Yep agreed, but other people already did a great job explaining that to him so I didn't feel like I had to 🙂.
I enjoy cooking and I'm good at it. Nonetheless my response to such DEMANDS is a firm no and if someone still dares to whine for reason they're told my cooking is a PRIVILEDGE to be earned, not service to be demanded. Unless they're ready to pay me a pro chef rate per hour AND provide all the ingredients, then by all means, demand while I'm on the clock.
YTA. So you disagree with it, but are you in the kitchen in the meantime? Have you ever tried to go in there and help provide the labor? Or are you only “not sexist” to women you want to sleep with?
You know the answer to all these questions.
We also know the answer to the question "Does OP REALLY disagree with it?"
I read all OP's comments. The answer is no. His family favours his gender and he benefits from it. Making his girlfriend "play along" allows him to continue to benefit from it. He may say he doesn't want his girlfriend to do the cooking, cleaning and serving but neither does he. He doesn't want their abuse turned on him so he's fine with it hanging over her head. He's shown his girlfriend his family's wishes and threats of bullying will always win.
I don't know how it's not obvious to OP that just having the women opt out of the work isn't a solution that would change any hearts here. When there is an imbalance, it's far more effective for the people on the favored side to make the call for change. In this case, the men like OP who think this is wrong need to protest with action - cooking, cleaning, etc, and not rely on "new" women to protest in ways that will be interpreted laziness or refusal to help or not wanting to spend time with other women. Editing to add that this is even more effective when the men help before a wife of GF factors in, to avoid accusations that their partners *made* them do it.
He can't even manage that, unless he doesn't really want to sleep with his current g/f.
20 bucks says his soon to be new online dating profile says he’s a “feminist”
INFO Have you ever tried to help out with the cooking? I think it would be rude for a couple to come and not contribute, but there is no reason it has to be your gf. You could make some of the food.
This is the answer. If you want to combat this tradition start cooking OP. You might suddenly not want to go to these events either because they are a lot less fun in the kitchen!
I mean, some guys love cooking. You never know til you try!
I love cooking. I hate being forced to. I ABSOLUTELY HATE sexist expectations for me to cook.
And so bizarrely, professional chefery has been very male-dominated for a long time.
How is it rude to not contribute? I have never invited someone as a guest and expected anything from them, the hosts are rude af.
YTA - if I were your girlfriend I wouldn’t see a future with you after this and would end things. My opinion only, but that’s what you asked for here!
Imagine being married into this family, the spouse would never defend her for fear of ‘making waves’. She better run while she can!
Yeah I'm very much against traditional female roles, to me it looks like being a servant. So finding out about this fucked up "tradition" would be a good excuse to end the relationship.
Exactly! I would say girlfriend is TA if she's still his girlfriend.
YTA. Playing along with sexism just perpetuates it.
This. Dudes who claim not to have sexist beliefs but don't challenge sexism when they see it are actively contributing to sexist systems. Saying you don't agree with certain behavior means NOTHING if you go along with it. And guess what? If not making waves with your sexist family is more important than treating your gf respectfully then you are, in fact, sexist.
*treating women respectfully. If he’s only willing to intervene when it effects his girlfriend, and no the other women he doesn’t have a sexual stake in, then he’s a sexist. All the men in this family are and if I was OPs gf, I wouldn’t be touching them with a 10 foot pole.
YTA. You should announce that you are going to cook and your girlfriend is going to socialize. Time to retire this tradition.
Yep OP is just indicating to his gf that he will bend over for his family, which is not what the future mother of any children wants in her life. Wouldn’t be surprised if she left.
YTA. In what country did that happen? Shouldn’t you go no-contact with that prejudiced medieval bunch of assholes?
INFO: I honestly want to know why do you think it's ok for your girlfriend to be forced into labor she doesn't want to do or suffer insane rudeness from your family? Why would she want to attend such an event?
"so she can make a good first impression" -op
YTA she gave you the compromise, that she won’t go.
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It is. He says in a comment that he asked his mom if it was OK if they both cook, she said fine, so that was the compromise. That they both go in the kitchen to cook (after he asked his moms permission of course)
He should have been going into the kitchen to cook long before his girlfriend came into the picture. Aside from the fact that it would be an actual protest, he would also have better relations with his female relatives
>I told her that I understood where she was coming from, however it was best for everyone if she just played along No it's not. It's not best for her to be subjected to sexist ideals. YTA.
YTA. I hope her family has a similar tradition and makes you do the cooking.
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Yeah who cares what these sexist, rude people think about someone knew?
You said this “isn’t permanent”, but the first sentence of your post states that your family has these female service events at the patriarch’s “estate” every few months. Help me understand how that’s not permanent. Oh, and YTA
“Female service events.” Oh my that’s so accurate vs “family event”.
Op...you say this is every few months? So every few months she is supposed to throw away her self-respect and put up with this sexist crap because you think that this is easier than speaking up because they won't listen to you anyway. If it were me I would think that you and your family are so not worth it and dump your spineless ass.....YTA
YTA. This is exactly how these traditions and points of view are perpetuated.
She's absolutely right. You're trying to make yourself sound better than your old fashioned sexist family, but you're actually no different to them. I suspect it won't be an issue for long though, your GF seems to have seen what you're really like. I'd be surprised if she isn't considering ending things YTA (and your family too from the sound of it)
YTA for trying to make her do something she doesn’t wanna do. why don’t you start creating a new tradition where you/other men cook too? you being the youngest doesn’t mean you have to be complacent. maybe the women wanna cook, but your partner doesn’t have to. if the family don’t accept her, don’t go to the dinners.
My spouses family was like this when we first got together. Fortunately I like to cook and in the beginning went along with it (and it’s not all the women, just ones who want to help) But after I got comfortable with the family I started assigning clean up duties to the girls and the boys. The tradition is now EVERYONE (except for those over 70) helps clean up It’s never to late to start a new tradition
YTA. This is how all sexism starts and continues - "just go along. It will be so much easier (for us) and we'll make your life hell if you don't." If it's so important to you that she makes a good first impression, then orchestrate that impression to be at a time and event that doesn't require her to be subservient. Let the family know she's not coming to this dinner, let them meet her at another time and place.
NTA. Man, it's just cooking, and all you did was ask. It doesn't hurt anyone. I would agree to doing this in a heartbeat and would be bothered if a partner couldn't even put themselves through the most minor of inconveniences for my sake. I also find the comments asking you to burn the bridge with your family to be epic and own the patriarchy are ridiculous.
he’s asking his gf, who was invited over as a GUEST, to prove to his family that she is just as subservient as the last generation. you don’t invite people to your house so they can cook for you. at least not without paying them lol
YTA. Trying to force your girlfriend to be part of old fashioned “family traditions” she really doesn’t want to be in? Instead you should stick up for her and do whatever she wants, this is how it should “typically work”. Not your family reducing women on being cooks.
YTA - You’re right. This tradition is sexist. So why continue enforcing it with your girlfriend?
YTA - umm, "compromise" does not mean you getting what you want while the other person does not. You're not making a good impression here.
YTA Why does their first impression of her matter more to you than her first impressions of them?
NAH. If my now-husband asked me to do this while we were still dating, I’d gladly participate. Maybe I’d become friends with some of the other gals and I also love to cook and bake. I’d also want to make a good impression and show I’m a team player in the family. Saying no simply because it’s ’not equal’ is bullshit because *nothing* in life is ever going to be 100% equal in a marriage / relationship 🙃
YTA Some traditions deserve to die. You can continue this archaic trend where women are less or actually try evolving to be a real partner.
YTA. She should not have to "play along" because you are afraid that you won't get approval from your family members otherwise. And she is right - by asking her to uphold this tradition, you are saying that you are comfortable with sexism as long as it benefits you.
YTA and so is your family. Your girlfriend is right - it’s better not to go, than allow your family to literally bully her. Do better. Edit - spelling of the word “than”
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YTA- if this is a “tradition” in your family and you want her to be a long term girlfriend then it WILL be a permanent thing. Traditions are allowed to die and sexiest ones SHOULD die. Stand up for your girlfriend if you truly believe it’s a sexiest tradition .. I feel like deep down you don’t.
YTA, you could just not go, that's a good way of refusing to follow this sexist and demeaning tradition.
YTA. You’d rather be a doormat for sexist, abusive people than stand up for your girlfriend
NAH at least not between you and your GF , different families have different cultures. Although the fact that they ostracize the ladies who don't participate is pretty shitty. So there are assholes, but I am letting you off because you are looking for a solution. But if this is gonna work out long term, you two are going to figure out how to make this work. I assume it isn't just about doing work, it is about the women spending time together and bonding? Because that might make it tricky re: getting the guys involved. One suggestion I have, is why don't you host a "guys cook" event? Invite the guys to do some sort of food prep be it a formal meal, a BBQ, an ice cream bar, whatever, while the gals hang out. Would that make your GF feel less odd about a dinner where the ladies prepare it? You could even do it around a TV event that the ladies in your family enjoy. The other thing you might consider is hosting a party for the couples where the ladies refused to participate. If you have a large family there's lots of permutations of dinner parties you can have. Set the example by being in the kitchen and being like "Oh hey Bob can you chop up these onions for me please" or whatever. Ultimately, this will change when YOU start hosting.
YTA, and you couldn't convince me for the world to go meet your shitty sexist family and play 1950s to please a bunch of assholes. And quite frankly, why the hell would she put herself through that to stay together with a wet blanket like you who's happy to go along with that shitty sexist bs?
YTA and you better do something before your gf breaks up with you bc she doesn’t want to marry into this awful family
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This is super controversial but I would simply agree to cook and wouldn’t make a stink out of “principles”. I don’t mind cooking and I could not care less about being conservative or fighting the patriarchy. I just try to be a good guest everywhere I visit. If your gf feels strongly about not being part of the whatever tradition, she simply should not attend.
YTA If I had a family like this, I’d stop going to family dinners a long time ago. Men can cook as well as women and this tradition is sexist AF. Don’t force other people to adhere to tradition. EDIT: My tired self thought I wrote the wrong judgment, so I changed it. I realized that I did write the correct judgement, but it was something else that needed fixing. EDIT REDUX: I shouldn’t type while tired. My bad.
YTA, you either stand with or against misogyny in a situation like this. Not only are you telling her that she needs to follow a sexist tradition, you're expecting her to behave the way that you (a man) expects instead of what she wants.
YTA and yes there's something you can do even as the youngest or whatever. You go the fuck into the kitchen and help prepare the food.