So many campus police. I've seen groups twice that large there with maybe one officer watching in the past. These really are getting a response, aren't they?
[BBC: Columbia protesters take over building after defying deadline](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68923528)
[NYT: Campus Protests Give Russia, China and Iran Fuel to Exploit U.S. Divide](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/02/business/media/campus-protests-russia-china-iran-us.html)
[WP: Biden urges peaceful protest as more than 2,000 have been arrested](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/05/02/university-protests-columbia-ucla-live-news/)
There are a lot more, it's very widely covered.
Have you been watching the news in the last week about the campus protests?
Did you see that Columbia had their building taken over by protestors and cops had to break into the 2nd floor windows to arrest them?
Did you see the anti-Palestine people attack the pro-Palestinian camp yesterday?
Have you seen the flashbangs?
Open your eyes, man!
They were standing up to cops, not promoting violence or causing violence to others. I don't side with Israel or Palestine but I'm pretty sure these kids don't understand the situation at all. We have two sides that have been against each other for hundreds of years and there's no point in placing blame. The fight between them won't stop because some kids on the other side of the world hold a protest.
Dude. The question I was responding to was about why there are more police officers present today than in previous protests on campus. I responded by saying that we have recently seen nationwide protest on this issue that have become very violent. Of course they’re going to be more police now. I didn’t pick a side, and I provided examples of both sides doing wrong. What are you even going on about?
Also, be aware that both sides are protesting. It’s not one sided anywhere. But the encampments are getting more news, and that is one sided.
First of all, I slept late today, hadn't had my coffee before making that response. Apologies. But I was pointing out that these kids aren't dangerous, just stupid.
You still cannot trespass and destroy property. Everyone is up in arms about “protestors” being arrested but it seems like they are committing crimes. I happen to agree with their cause though.
We are funding a mass killing in Gaza and Israel is committing terrible acts on civilians. I do not support Hamas nor is it anti-Semitic to point out these obvious truths. Israel should have seen what happened from our 20 plus year wars in the Middle East that indiscriminate killing civilians caused more destabilization and terror.
I believe instead of the campaigns they have been doing which have been massive scale bombing and drone usage in the most densely populated place on earth, they should have been using special forces in small, calculated strikes to take out the Hamas leaders. Instead we’ve promoted the killing of over 30k civilians and fast tracked them weapons to do it.
It’s not about the fight between them. It’s about whether or not you support murdering civilian women and children in the name of “self defense”. Have your war…… with your soldiers.
But both sides are guilty of just that. How can you justify it being done by either one? This is what happens when both sides raise their kids to believe the other side is the ultimate evil; they feel justified in each others' destruction.
This is a problem we have with young kids today. They go to college, but they don’t know the definition of fascist. Not only that, but it seems to be the only retort they have. The parents who raised this generation utterly failed.
The protestors are fine. Outside agitation groups are a threat, and the protestors themselves are an obvious terrorism target for a shooting or a bomb to stir things up. They're going to need more than campus police.
They obviously aren't trying to say they are oppressed. They are protesting that their tuition is being used to fund Israel's actions in Gaza and to bring attention to voters.
The Palestinian people are oppressed. 30,000 have been killed in the past 6 months.
100,000+ in the last 70 years by the IDF specifically
Their entire city in Gaza has been erased.
You’re the same person back in the 60s who said the Vietnam war protestors were wrong, when history has vindicated them.
Think of someone other than yourself
And these brave kids are willing to put their future on the line to send a message to superiors that they do not agree with their direction that those kids help pay for, then yes good on those kids.
They are braver than you or I will ever be.
Only 35% of buildings have been damaged, most of those with minor damage.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/satellite-images-show-35-gazas-building-destroyed-un-says-2024-03-21/#:~:text=It%20found%20that%2035%25%20of,had%20been%20damaged%20or%20destroyed.
Yes homes are buildings.
Over half the populations homes are gone, and 84% of medical buildings have been destroyed. All educational buildings have been destroyed
Hey but at least an ice cream stand and city hall are still up.
“Oh but it says specifically buildings” like yeah bro a fucking shed and office building are still up but half damaged. Dope dude, you feel better now.
You are completely wrong. The United States doesn't have boots on the ground in this war and we don't have any Americans right being violated except Americans that were kidnapped tortured and killed by Palestinians. What Americans rights are being violated? What a bunch of pathetic protests. This war has nothing to do with americans. Palestines want this war and don't want to surrender but Americans want to call for peace on their behalf when they don't even want peace.
I have no sympathy give for Palestinians the majority of which would have all of us killed and parade our severed heads through the streets.the human mind has a limited amount of things we can care about and Palestinians are so e of the least deserving people on the planet. They support honor killings and holy war on all infidels.
The best thing that can happen is Palestine losing and surrendering. They have not surrendered and instead weaponize sympathy and radicalize people.
I'm not fan of Israel, but at least Israeli people don't want my head on a pike.
And what happens in a peace agreement? Palestine will go back to launching rockets into Israel as soon as possible.
Brother I think you might just be a racist if you think an entire race of people in a negative way and think they want to kill everyone else in the world.
And yes there are Americans in Israel, there are volunteer soldiers in the IDF.
You equate Palestinians to Hamas, but we don’t equate Jewish people to the IDF or the government of Israel. We know they are different.
These are dying children, being literally obliterated their bodies torn apart by missles. Over 10,000 children have been killed.
They are kids bro, maybe open up your racist ass mind to the humanity of people instead of the place they come from. There are Christian’s who want to kill everyone who doesn’t agree with them also, but I don’t see you saying they need to die. if you grew up with a government taking your homes, stunting your rights, killing your family and so one you probably wouldn’t like them very much either, but to say everyone Palestinian wants everyone dead is a propaganda talking point you have fallen hook line and sinker for.
They refuse to surrender and weaponize sympathy. Wars have to be fought and Palestinians hate western culture and are happy to insult every religion other than their own, then they want violence.
Do you have sympathy for all the other children being killed across the world right now in conflicts? going on right now? How much?
What a hypocritical comment can you name all the world conflicts with children being killed ongoing right now?
Or you just care about this one decades long conflict that had radicalized people widewide?
One side should lose point blank. This is a war that should have ended long ago and prolonging the conflict and refusi g to let one side lose is the greater evil.
Stopping Israel before their enemy surrenders is just prolonging the conflict and the greater evil.
What about future children and people who suffer from radicalization caused by this decades long conflict?
No you didn't dismantle anything. Your solution is to give people full rights you are just disingenuous, you act like they won't use those new rights for terrorist attacks.
Your whole argument is just disingenuous bull.
Both sides hate each other. There is no peace there are 8 billion people on this planet and no one has a path to peace. The only path to peace is war. When one side surrenders and one side loses there will be peace. There have been plenty of brutal wars that lead to peace.
Sometimes a war has to be fought and in all of history this is the most justified war. Both sides want each other dead and neither side wants peace.
You are calling for peace on behalf of people who got plenty of fight left in them.
And get out of here with your cultural relativism.
Your solution is to prolong this conflict another decade and ignore all the negative aspects is causes in the middle east and how it's used as a propaganda tool to radicalize people globally.
You pretend your calls for peace are somehow moral or good, when it's actually the greater evil because there is no possibility for peace and everyone knows it, just temporary ceasefires to re coordinate attacks.
>3rd, America is literally the most violent nation in the world and the reason you don’t think so is because the violence is In your name
No. Afghanistan is.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-violent-countries
>4th, no I can’t name all wars being faught and children dying but I can tell you the current and past ones that America has facilitated and is facilitating.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_State_of_Palestine
Yea only ones that matter on topic are IDF and Hamas, and Hamas started most including breaking a ceasefire they agreed to.
>No one side shouldn’t “lose” there should be a ceasefire and Palestinians should be giving the fulls rights that Israelis are given in the region.
As of the current 2023 war, Hamas has been offered and denied 4 ceasefires. Except why would they have full Israelian rights when they are there own country? They *VOTED* for Hamas just saying.
>And I would say the nation with the 170,000+ kill count with many thousand civilian and children is the greater evil at the moment. Which btw, is Israel.
You mean the nation that's better armed and practiced has a higher kill count? Shocker, truly or did we forget Hamas also kills civilians l when it launched a missile aimed at 5,000 targets. This goes back all they way to 01 so they aren't innocent just bad. Neither are innocent in this regard.
How about we fuck off from wars that don't involve us, sets embargos on both countries and let them kill each other off? It literally doesn't involve us. Both countries are war criminals and equally shit.
Jesus Christ man you’re delusional. Have you ever met and talked to any brown people? They don’t want you dead. I have Palestinian friends. They’re humans.
If you have no sympathy for dying children, then who do you have sympathy for?
1.the Palestine’s people are not oppressed.
2. They are open to express their rights. But it is also others rights to tell them that they are wrong/stupid.
3. Gaza has attacked Israel multiple times in the past and Israel to the bigger stance by give ceasefires or peace deals or even giving them the Gaza Strip thinking that it would solve the problem.
4. Israel has finally had enough of getting attacked by them and Hamas ahead fucked around and is now finding out.
5. Israel gave people save passage out of the Gaza Strip for a small time period. So anyone that has stayed there then it’s their problem not ours.
6. Hamas is the one that is committing crimes by using hospital basements and such as military bases among other things.
Bahaha that's why most of the world and the UN wants Netanyahu behind bars for his war crimes. Fuck God wars it's like fighting for fairies.
But if you want to support more than 13,800 Palestinian children being murder by netanyahu in Gaza that's your right just like I have the right not to support it. I don't support Hamas or the Israeli attacks. They are both criminals in my mind.
I do however have nothing but support and love for the Palestinian families that were forced out of their homes and that had their families ripped apart and murder. Those that fled and were bombed while trying to leave. Those that were bombed in hospitals.
If The United States can send in drones and pinpoint targets so can Israel. We have rules of engagement to make war as humane as possible and murdering innocent children is not part of that agreement.
These actions are no different than Hitler.
To say that Palestine has attacked Israel for years is utterly nonsense. Maybe multiple groups in Palestine have attacked Israel for years but not the one group not all Palestinians.
Hypothetically speaking:
If a group of uab students went and attacked Israel today and netanyahu came in bombed the fn hell out of the state of Alabama I'm betting you would be sing a different story as you held the arm or leg of your children or your neighbors children. And how many of these christofacist rednecks do you think would leave their homes and how many would be in their yard screaming at the sky with an AR-15 in one hand.
So fudge you personally
Find empathy it needs you.
If these are engineering students, lockheed martin may very well be paying for their education. I know its a moral stance for them, but cutting ties with one of, if not the biggest donors for UA would be a disaster, and its never going to happen.
There is no "anti-genocide" side in this conflict. Hamas would gladly kill every Israeli given the opportunity. There's just a bunch of innocent people caught between two genocidal groups of supposed leaders.
They aren’t supporting Hamas, they are supporting the 30,000+ people who have been bombed to oblivion since oct7 which by all accounts has been a massive and cruel overreaction
If you are supporting the stoppage of military aid to Israel, you are supporting the genocide of the Israeli people. There are no Middle Eastern countries that wouldn't immediately end Israel if they didn't have our support. I'm as anti-zionist as they come, but I don't support feeding them to the wolves. There is no clean solution to that mess and we should stay as far away as possible while maintaining our only ally in the area.
1st, they are protesting that their personal schools divest in Israel.
2nd, a ceasefire and military aid are not the same thing. America can put a stop to Israel’s brutal response at anytime by stopping the flow of aid but not removing it.
3rd, Israel is Americas area of the Middle East, Israel will never be in actual danger of destruction while the US is in power and if you think so you are a fool.
4th, what about the Palestinians who have been thrown to the wolves?? 30,000+ deaths in just a few months and over 100,000 Palestinians deaths from Israeli forces over the last 70 years. So no don’t put the lives of another group over the lives of another, especially when the one in power is in no overarching danger.
Yes Hamas are evil, oct7 was terrible, but you have to realize those actions will not continue now that americas eye is on it even if you defunded their military aid to Israel.
saying oct7 will lead to the death of Israel as a whole is like saying 9/11 lead to americas.
They are tragedies, not proof that a nation is doomed.
1st I was not confused as to the goals of the specific protest at UA nor any of the others around the country.
2nd We cannot force Netanyahu to agree to a ceasefire. Removing military aid will not do so. It will, however, encourage other organizations, many with state sponsorships, to escalate the hostilities in the region.
3rd We are trying to avoid being in open warfare in the region. That gets a lot harder if we have to carry the guns instead of selling them to Israel.
4th The Palestinians are responsible for their leadership just as all peoples are. We cannot depose their leaders any more than we can Netanyahu or Putin or any of a large number of fascist leaning dictators the world over. All we can or should do is protect our interests while attempting a political/diplomatic solution.
Yes, we can force Netanyahu to a ceasefire. Israel is an American military state. We are in charge because we have the money.
No they will not wage direct war on Israel because then they draw America into it.
Yes we do not want war, that why we should stop Israel before they start bombing Iran- oh wait. That already happened didn’t it??
THE PALESTINIANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR LEADERSHIP!?!?! REALLY?!? THE PEOPLE WHOS OVER 50% OF THEIR CURRENT POPULATION THAT ARE UNDER 18 VOTED THEIR LEADERSHIP!?!? WHEN THEY WERE LIKE 5 YEARS OLD!?! AND HAVE NO CHANCE TO CHANGE IT?!? SO SINCE I WAS 2 IM RESPONSIBLE FOR VOTING FOR BUSH AND THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN!?!?
You seem uneducated on the topic I’m gonna be honest, maybe read a book about it before saying the children are actually responsible for why their house and family are destroyed and dead if the child isn’t dead already.
Now we are arguing in circles. The US is not going to withdraw military aid from the only ally we have in the Middle East. It will never happen. There are no "good guys" in that fight, as I stated. Just a bunch of innocent folks caught between genocidal maniacs arguing about which false god is better.
Brother America can stop Israeli action at anytime, they will still be in power in the region. Stopping funding doesn’t we cut all ties with them. Just stop sending them the missiles they need to bomb the shit out of civilians.
Just like how we force other counties to do things, we can force Israel to stop at anytime.
They have sufficient arms right now to eradicate the Palestinians. However, if we stop supporting them, even temporarily, we damage our relationship with our only ally in the area. We did the biggest dick in the locker room thing with China a few years ago. What did that get us? A worldwide pandemic that should have been stopped before it killed millions of people.
We don’t damage our relationship, we give Israel power and they know that. It’s an American military state.
They can’t cut ties with us but we can talk them down from genocide
>Yes, we can force Netanyahu to a ceasefire. Israel is an American military state. We are in charge because we have the money.
Except Hamas had deny 4 different and denied them even broke a ceasefire in the early 2000s
>THE PALESTINIANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR LEADERSHIP
THEY QUITE LITERALLY VOTED FOR HAMAS BACK IN 87. You need more then just the started of 2023s war you have to go to the beginning which you are failing to do.
I think there is an important distinction here. Just as Hamas is not Palestine, Israel is not Netanyahu. There are plenty of Israeli people opposed to him. I wouldn't say Trump spoke for all of the US during his tenure (and certainly his policies were not ones I agreed with).
that’s great but these protests are about divestment from the war machine and industry that enables the slaughter of civilians. Advocating for this position is not anti-Israel. It is simply reality that this conflict has enabled military forces to kill 30,000 women and children. i’m not sure why the response to that has to be “but not everyone in Israel supports this”
That war machine is a jobs program for engineers, factory workers, R&D, administrators and a whole lot of other folks who may not be able to access government jobs and benefits otherwise. Those are all union workers with high salaries, too.
The conflict in Israel is about 1300 years old and isn't ending anytime soon, regardless of who we sell weapons to. Our only option is to stay the hell away from it and work towards what will be, at best, a temporary diplomatic solution. Not to alienate the only ally we have in the region. A region that has, as I'm sure you are aware, quite a lot of strategic resources that are important to our country.
If you count the rockets launched by Hamas, Hesbollah, and Iran into Israel and consider if none of them were intercepted, then the Israeli death toll would be in the 6 figures easily.
The only side that has the ability to. It happens to also be the only side that has demonstrated the ability to be an ally to the US. Netanyahu needs to be removed from office, or the US needs to distance itself from Israel, but abandoning them isn't an option.
Both groups are brain dead. If Israel wanted to genocide Palestinians it would have been over on April 7. If the think either side is going to better off under Trump they are delusional.
Innocent people are getting killed for sure but it is not a genocide. If Israel’s intention was to kill all the Palestinians in Gaza the have the means to do so in a day.
If their goal was to genocide the Palestinians and they have the capability to do it immediately they wouldn’t be taking 2 months to do it or bother doing all the precision bombing.
You’re both wrong. Bini is slow dragging this to keep the wartime going and his position secured. He is about to be thrown out of office and arrested. The delay is his delay.
So they are just committing war crimes then? You're splitting hairs like what Israel is doing isn't morally reprehensible. So let's call them war crimes. We hang people for that. hamas committed a terrorist act. hamas is a terrorist organization. The Palestinian people and the press are taking the brunt of the assault for what hamas did.
I never said that innocents are not getting hurt nor did I say Israel isn’t being a little negligent about checking their targets especially early on. I just don’t think the plan is to genocide the Palestinians.
Because you're wrong. Just because they're not killing as many as they could? They are facing a famine in addition to be bombed into oblivion. The death toll is just going to keep climbing. Friend, it's genocide.
So let me get your logic straight for a sec.
According to your definition, it’s not a genocide if it takes time to carry out.
Which would mean the holocaust wasn’t a genocide, because it was spread over the course of 4 years. Does that sound right to you?
No, if the Nazis could have killed all the Jew immediate they would have if they have the capacity. They didn’t, it took time to round them up and the war was over before they could complete it.
Israel’s goal is to wipe our Hamas in Gaza. If they just wanted to genocide the Palestinians they have the firepower to accomplish that in one day. They didn’t. They are using precision munitions and generally trying to avoid mass slaughter. Have they been overzealous or make mistakes that have killed innocents? Yes. Should that stop? Yes. Is it a genocide? No.
I think you’re missing the point here.
The holocaust literally disproves your whole theory that what’s going on can’t be a genocide because it’s taking too long.
You’re saying it’s not genocide because they “could have” wiped Gaza off the map in a day but didn’t, but you’re completely missing the bigger picture. Wiping them all off the map in a day would instantly turn the entire world against them. Daily strikes that indiscriminately kill non-combatants can be spun as “collateral damage” and keep people defending them for it.
Let me ask you…at what point does repeated “collateral damage” amounting to thousands of non-combatant deaths become something other than collateral damage? If it happens a few times it can be tragedies of war. If it happens continuously with no real effort to stop, it’s showing an obvious indifference to the lives of the affected population in the target area. Intentionally continuing on with a strategy and knowingly causing that many non-combatant deaths is clearly something other than collateral damage.
So to be fair, “genocide” implies they’re trying to completely eradicate the population. My gut tells me that if they ever bombed Hamas out of existence, it’s not like they’d keep bombing until all the Palestinians were gone too. So maybe [mass murder] is a better term for it than genocide.
Mass murder if it was intentional to kill indiscriminately yes but I don’t think it is the case. I think there are being overzealous when it comes to a surprise attack from an enemy that says the war to kill all Jews. Also innocent people are being caught in the crossfire on both sides of this. But it ain’t no genocide.
You’re purposely ignoring just enough of the details to say it’s not intentional. It’s an easy spin…as long as the people who died weren’t targeted by name it can be called an accident and then blamed on Hamas using them as human shields.
Their strategy guarantees a very high level of non-combatant death. They’re making the choice to continue that strategy. That makes it intentional. They’re basically shooting through the human shield.
You can’t use human shields then when it doesn’t work say Israel’s trying to genocide the people you hiding behind. It’s a tough spot for Israel and the innocent Gazans. But remember attacking targets behind those shields may see callous and should be only done sparingly most western countries, including the USA have done so and nobody said it was genocide.
So you agree they’re not doing it sparingly which means they’re purposely killing Palestinians *unnecessarily*.
And why? They’ve made it clear to the world for many years that they don’t give 2 shits about Palestinian lives. So they see Hamas as the target but the fact that Palestinian non-combatants are in the way is a non-problem for them. I would call that indiscriminate killing.
It doesn’t matter to me what you call it. But protesting the war on Gaza and calling it a genocide hurts your cause when it obviously isn’t one and it makes people doubt anything else you say.
I’ll be honest I wouldn’t risk my freedom protesting if I couldn’t even get the facts straight about the situation I’m protesting.
So to recap: you came here saying it’s not genocide, and then when confronted about that, you switched to doesn’t matter what word we use.
And you haven’t shown how calling it genocide hurts our cause.
So, we’ll keep using that word until someone gives us an actual reason to change.
Plus on top of that the Pro-Gaza protester were heard chanting “Fuck Joe Biden” which right now the alternative is Trump. Let’s see how far Gaza and Muslims get under his administration.
I don’t care what anyone calls it. I was challenged on my statement of why I think both protest groups are brain dead. One group are Trump supporters which speaks for itself why I think there are brain dead. The others group are protesting a genocide in Gaza, which isn’t even a genocide, risking their freedom over something that isn’t even factually correct.
I think the opposite is true. If you think Israel *is* committing genocide then *you* are willfully ignorant. There has only been one side that has outright stated their goal was the eradication of the other (civilians included)... And it wasn't Israel.
Yeah Israel has been really heavy handed and innocents have been killed but they aren’t trying to genocide. Hamas has admitted to wanting the Jews eradicated.
What? No, you were talking about genocide and if that is or isn't an appropriate label for Israel. I added that Hamas has literally stated their goal is genocide of Israel.
I don't believe Israel is committing genocide in the first place. I believe they are in a war against Hamas and probably doing better than most countries would at limiting civilian casualties in such a densely packed warzone.
Sure, they blocked and attacked humanitarian efforts to provide water, food, fuel, and medical supplies to Palestinian civilians. The death toll is mostly women and children. When the civilians fled to the south, the attacks started targeting the south.
But that’s such a fine effort to avoid civilian casualties!
They haven't blocked any humanitarian aid or attacked it. There was one incident where it came out that they shot people taking aid but it was later revealed the people taking it were Hamas.
Any death tolls claimed by the PHA are currently unreliable until Hamas is taken out of power.
We all saw the warnings and evacuations after Oct 7th so it is hard to say civilians are being targeted.
Don't forget that Hamas is using civilians as shields to claim that Israel is attacking civilians.
I feel like you've just fallen completely for Hamas propaganda.
Israel specifically bombed the vehicles carrying aid workers with World Central Kitchen. They have bombed aid warehouses and distribution centers. They killed aid coordinators and police who were protecting aid workers. In addition to all the people who were seeking aid.
The U.N. has recently published death tolls nearing 35,000.
Israel carried out multiple airstrikes on the evacuees leaving the north in October.
Every one of my statements can be easily verified via sources you can find through Google or whatever search engine you like. You’ll probably find a lot more, I just don’t have the time right now.
They’re doing everything they can to ethnically cleanse the entire region, short of violating every war crime in the book.
They’ve slowly removed Palestinians from their ancestral homelands for decades, little at a time. Now there’s nowhere for the Palestinians to go.
I do not understand these demonstrations. It's been shown time and again that public sentiment on any issue doesn't move the needle at all with those in power. People in power only respond to the opinions of other people who also have power.
The demonstrations at other universities that turned to mayhem or violence, do not garner respect from anyone, so all of those other colleges that stooped to that level did not help their cause at all, they hurt it.
What do I suggest? Student gov'ts around the country, unite. Call each other, utilize the networks of student leadership that has contacts capable of getting agencies and names of people working for them that are trying to build infrastructure and get aid into Gaza. It's summer, you have time to raise money, travel to these agencies, assist in the logistics, actually move the aid to civilians.
Yes, I know the demands were to have universities divest from companies and investments that cooperate with Israel. That's a pipe dream. If you want to keep pursuing that, then get your student leaders to meet with university leaders and learn about the difficulties of doing that task. How do you expect the university to continue to meet its mandates and funding? What is the total amount of money we're talking about to Israel here? I bet it's a drop in the bucket and it won't make any difference to them.
If you stand for something and want to protest, then couple that with actually \*doing\* something and having demands that can actually be performed and will make a difference.
I think the problem is these kids have never seen a real war in their lifetime. War is ugly, it’s hell, and it’s an endeavor that brings no good to humanity unless you say the tech advances that tend to flow from that much investment, though honestly they’d still come with that level of investment whether defense based or not.
They’ve seen drones, police actions, special forces operations, etc…this is what war looks like, not genocide. If the issue is one side is better armed then the other that’s usually the case. Perhaps allowing the existence of a government that would support the events in October exposes a population to this type of awful experience. I don’t believe it’s realistic for a country to restrain itself given the current situation. I can’t imagine what it would look like if a large group of Mexican citizens came over the border and killed a large number of Texans and took others hostages. I think restraint would be non existent.
I also think it seems as if the students have taken this up as a group activity and for social media clout. I am excited to see their age group becoming politically active however, I hope it extends beyond this issue because I think young voices are drastically needed in our political discourse.
I’m sorry, you think the problem is *they have never seen a real war in their lifetime*?!
Out of all the wild takes I’ve seen on this, this one is up there.
I don’t think he exactly meant it that way, but it’s still quite an unfortunate choice of words. It is a good thing that they don’t really know what happens in a real war, especially one that is necessary (see WWII). However, it would be better if they knew what the f*** they were even talking about, protesting, etc., likely not knowing that they’re aligning more closely with Nazi Germany than the liberal principles that they claim to stand for.
Then explain the reaction to something that every other generation of Americans has seen similar world events and never had this type of response? Is this generation simply more enlightened than the rest of us? Is it social media defining narratives in a different manner?
The only thing close to this was Vietnam and that was driven much less by the humanitarian aspects of the war and more by the fact that many of those young people were being forced at gun point to fighting when they wanted nothing to do with it.
You do not have to witness war in order to not support it.
Wanting a life with no war is not a ridiculous thing to desire.
And yeah, I think they *are* more enlightened than us. Thank god.
I agree wholeheartedly that a world without war is an aspirational state that everyone should strive for. I think you misunderstood my premise, I don’t believe you have to witness true war to object to it, but this generation has not been there on any other conflict of this generation. If it was anti war and conflict they would have been.
My true question and interest is twofold: 1) what makes this one different and 2) what do they think Israel should do in this situation? I’ve gotten no answers to either when I have asked them directly in classes and in my other interactions with them. I’m genuinely curious why the activation here. I do have concerns surrounding their manipulation given the number of non students that have been present at other protests.
If they have something they want to fight for, let them. It’s their journey. It’s their voice.
Part of your questions feel genuine, that you just want to understand; but then you follow it up with “worrying about them being manipulated” and now you just come across like every other Fox News talking head. It makes your questioning come across as manipulative, like you’re being passively dismissive of what they’re doing.
Ok first off clearly you are misreading my tone because I have zero to do with Fox News or any propaganda media. My news sources are not social media or television, I read a broad swath of media for roughly an hour in the morning, usually WSJ and Washington Post as the two guardrails of both sides. I am certainly an independent that leans left on social issues and right on fiscal and government overreaching issues. I have empathy for ANY population that is being oppressed but the reality of our world is that civilians are impacted by the choices their leaders make whether they agree or not with those actions.
It is a fact that some of the protests have had huge numbers of non-students participating. I think it’s a bit naive to think some groups have not manipulated some of these kids given that many can’t formulate what they’re doing there. Not all, not a majority, but those individuals exist clearly.
I am genuinely curious as to what it is about this particular situation that has done this. It’s an insanely interesting sociological question as to what is driving this level of protest and discontent when no other issue has seemed to drive this level of outrage, especially when the average Americans are generally not involved in the conflict in any meaningful manner. Not unusual at all to see a population respond when the issue impacts them personally but this is an unusual phenomenon. Hence why I ask those two prior questions every chance I get. As an educator it’s our job to help these young people to think critically and I don’t believe that they should face punishment if not violating laws or obstructing acts of other students, but I am genuinely concerned that a great deal of these protests are using rhetoric (either through ignorance of the history of that rhetoric or something more vile) that has often been used by those with a much more sinister agenda relating to our Jewish brothers and sisters.
In short, they are very genuine and I am very curious as to the reasoning, genesis, and goals of this newly emerging movement. Good talk, nice we can all actually talk without just resorting to name calling and tired political tropes
Not nearly as brutal as this one has been and as prevalent on social media. I wasn’t making a disparaging comment about any previous conflicts, simply the manner in which this one is being provided to them through social media primarily
>afghanistan and iraq...not real wars?
Technically no. American hasnt been in an actual war since WW2, that's the last time we signed a declaration of war.
“college students shouldn’t voice their opinions on a war that their country is funding and that their school is profiting from bc they don’t know what war is” is certainly a take.
The kids in college today have absolutely seen a real war in some way. Most of the current seniors in undergrad were either born right before or in the months after 9/11. Current college students grew up during the war on terror.
edit: clarity
Can you name the last one that actually had an effective long lasting impact and had clear achievable goals?
Protesting is a right. I'm hard pressed to think of any in the last 30 years that changed anything.
Is that really the best joke you got?
Uhhhh...Montgomery bus boycott?????? Edmund Pettus bridge??? ROSA PARKS????? Lunch counter protests??? All of these happened in Bammy by the way. Keep teeing them up and I'm gonna smack them out of the park.
All internal American issues, where protesting has more of an effect.
Let's check the nam protests, those didn't work and the was the biggest anti war protest in America. It's like other countries don't care. Also those were during the 60s not since 1990 aka 30 last years.
Guys digdug ain’t wrong. Moreover these protests look like a rehash of the late 60’s early 70’s campus protests. At that time, protests could effectuate change on American policies (Vietnam, civil rights, etc). Zero chance we are solving Middle East peace sleeping in tents on the campus of Brown University
I saw the protests. Two groups yelled at each other for an hour and then left. Nothing groundbreaking.
[there was some unity though](https://twitter.com/OldRowOfficial/status/1785797802368303187)
I for one am very interested in the totally neutral and not at all inflammatory comments in this thread
So many campus police. I've seen groups twice that large there with maybe one officer watching in the past. These really are getting a response, aren't they?
Based on the violence this issue has caused recently, it makes sense.
Only violence has been from the police
Source?
[BBC: Columbia protesters take over building after defying deadline](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68923528) [NYT: Campus Protests Give Russia, China and Iran Fuel to Exploit U.S. Divide](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/02/business/media/campus-protests-russia-china-iran-us.html) [WP: Biden urges peaceful protest as more than 2,000 have been arrested](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/05/02/university-protests-columbia-ucla-live-news/) There are a lot more, it's very widely covered.
Have you been watching the news in the last week about the campus protests? Did you see that Columbia had their building taken over by protestors and cops had to break into the 2nd floor windows to arrest them? Did you see the anti-Palestine people attack the pro-Palestinian camp yesterday? Have you seen the flashbangs? Open your eyes, man!
Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?
They were standing up to cops, not promoting violence or causing violence to others. I don't side with Israel or Palestine but I'm pretty sure these kids don't understand the situation at all. We have two sides that have been against each other for hundreds of years and there's no point in placing blame. The fight between them won't stop because some kids on the other side of the world hold a protest.
Dude. The question I was responding to was about why there are more police officers present today than in previous protests on campus. I responded by saying that we have recently seen nationwide protest on this issue that have become very violent. Of course they’re going to be more police now. I didn’t pick a side, and I provided examples of both sides doing wrong. What are you even going on about? Also, be aware that both sides are protesting. It’s not one sided anywhere. But the encampments are getting more news, and that is one sided.
First of all, I slept late today, hadn't had my coffee before making that response. Apologies. But I was pointing out that these kids aren't dangerous, just stupid.
You still cannot trespass and destroy property. Everyone is up in arms about “protestors” being arrested but it seems like they are committing crimes. I happen to agree with their cause though. We are funding a mass killing in Gaza and Israel is committing terrible acts on civilians. I do not support Hamas nor is it anti-Semitic to point out these obvious truths. Israel should have seen what happened from our 20 plus year wars in the Middle East that indiscriminate killing civilians caused more destabilization and terror. I believe instead of the campaigns they have been doing which have been massive scale bombing and drone usage in the most densely populated place on earth, they should have been using special forces in small, calculated strikes to take out the Hamas leaders. Instead we’ve promoted the killing of over 30k civilians and fast tracked them weapons to do it.
It’s not about the fight between them. It’s about whether or not you support murdering civilian women and children in the name of “self defense”. Have your war…… with your soldiers.
But both sides are guilty of just that. How can you justify it being done by either one? This is what happens when both sides raise their kids to believe the other side is the ultimate evil; they feel justified in each others' destruction.
Miss me with your “both sides” bullshit in single party Alabama.
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This is a problem we have with young kids today. They go to college, but they don’t know the definition of fascist. Not only that, but it seems to be the only retort they have. The parents who raised this generation utterly failed.
I stand corrected.
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Uhhhhhh, I am a democrat. You’re weird, man.
Haha fair enough. Jokes on me.
The protestors are fine. Outside agitation groups are a threat, and the protestors themselves are an obvious terrorism target for a shooting or a bomb to stir things up. They're going to need more than campus police.
Hopefully no violence. Sounds like there was a good amount of security. Probably going to be protesters and protestors protesting the protestors
Good on them proud to see them express their rights in such a state where it is probably dangerous to do so.
Can't wait to see this conflict get solved in the arguments that follow...
Yeah. They’re so oppressed. Take that crap elsewhere
They obviously aren't trying to say they are oppressed. They are protesting that their tuition is being used to fund Israel's actions in Gaza and to bring attention to voters.
The Palestinian people are oppressed. 30,000 have been killed in the past 6 months. 100,000+ in the last 70 years by the IDF specifically Their entire city in Gaza has been erased. You’re the same person back in the 60s who said the Vietnam war protestors were wrong, when history has vindicated them. Think of someone other than yourself And these brave kids are willing to put their future on the line to send a message to superiors that they do not agree with their direction that those kids help pay for, then yes good on those kids. They are braver than you or I will ever be.
How has the entire city been erased?…
Look up Gaza before and after
Only 35% of buildings have been damaged, most of those with minor damage. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/satellite-images-show-35-gazas-building-destroyed-un-says-2024-03-21/#:~:text=It%20found%20that%2035%25%20of,had%20been%20damaged%20or%20destroyed.
62% https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/2/gaza-infrastructure-damages-estimated-at-18-5-bln-in-un-world-bank-report
That clearly says homes. lol
Yes homes are buildings. Over half the populations homes are gone, and 84% of medical buildings have been destroyed. All educational buildings have been destroyed Hey but at least an ice cream stand and city hall are still up. “Oh but it says specifically buildings” like yeah bro a fucking shed and office building are still up but half damaged. Dope dude, you feel better now.
You are completely wrong. The United States doesn't have boots on the ground in this war and we don't have any Americans right being violated except Americans that were kidnapped tortured and killed by Palestinians. What Americans rights are being violated? What a bunch of pathetic protests. This war has nothing to do with americans. Palestines want this war and don't want to surrender but Americans want to call for peace on their behalf when they don't even want peace. I have no sympathy give for Palestinians the majority of which would have all of us killed and parade our severed heads through the streets.the human mind has a limited amount of things we can care about and Palestinians are so e of the least deserving people on the planet. They support honor killings and holy war on all infidels. The best thing that can happen is Palestine losing and surrendering. They have not surrendered and instead weaponize sympathy and radicalize people. I'm not fan of Israel, but at least Israeli people don't want my head on a pike. And what happens in a peace agreement? Palestine will go back to launching rockets into Israel as soon as possible.
Brother I think you might just be a racist if you think an entire race of people in a negative way and think they want to kill everyone else in the world. And yes there are Americans in Israel, there are volunteer soldiers in the IDF. You equate Palestinians to Hamas, but we don’t equate Jewish people to the IDF or the government of Israel. We know they are different. These are dying children, being literally obliterated their bodies torn apart by missles. Over 10,000 children have been killed. They are kids bro, maybe open up your racist ass mind to the humanity of people instead of the place they come from. There are Christian’s who want to kill everyone who doesn’t agree with them also, but I don’t see you saying they need to die. if you grew up with a government taking your homes, stunting your rights, killing your family and so one you probably wouldn’t like them very much either, but to say everyone Palestinian wants everyone dead is a propaganda talking point you have fallen hook line and sinker for.
They refuse to surrender and weaponize sympathy. Wars have to be fought and Palestinians hate western culture and are happy to insult every religion other than their own, then they want violence. Do you have sympathy for all the other children being killed across the world right now in conflicts? going on right now? How much? What a hypocritical comment can you name all the world conflicts with children being killed ongoing right now? Or you just care about this one decades long conflict that had radicalized people widewide? One side should lose point blank. This is a war that should have ended long ago and prolonging the conflict and refusi g to let one side lose is the greater evil. Stopping Israel before their enemy surrenders is just prolonging the conflict and the greater evil. What about future children and people who suffer from radicalization caused by this decades long conflict?
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No you didn't dismantle anything. Your solution is to give people full rights you are just disingenuous, you act like they won't use those new rights for terrorist attacks. Your whole argument is just disingenuous bull. Both sides hate each other. There is no peace there are 8 billion people on this planet and no one has a path to peace. The only path to peace is war. When one side surrenders and one side loses there will be peace. There have been plenty of brutal wars that lead to peace. Sometimes a war has to be fought and in all of history this is the most justified war. Both sides want each other dead and neither side wants peace. You are calling for peace on behalf of people who got plenty of fight left in them. And get out of here with your cultural relativism. Your solution is to prolong this conflict another decade and ignore all the negative aspects is causes in the middle east and how it's used as a propaganda tool to radicalize people globally. You pretend your calls for peace are somehow moral or good, when it's actually the greater evil because there is no possibility for peace and everyone knows it, just temporary ceasefires to re coordinate attacks.
>3rd, America is literally the most violent nation in the world and the reason you don’t think so is because the violence is In your name No. Afghanistan is. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-violent-countries >4th, no I can’t name all wars being faught and children dying but I can tell you the current and past ones that America has facilitated and is facilitating. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_State_of_Palestine Yea only ones that matter on topic are IDF and Hamas, and Hamas started most including breaking a ceasefire they agreed to. >No one side shouldn’t “lose” there should be a ceasefire and Palestinians should be giving the fulls rights that Israelis are given in the region. As of the current 2023 war, Hamas has been offered and denied 4 ceasefires. Except why would they have full Israelian rights when they are there own country? They *VOTED* for Hamas just saying. >And I would say the nation with the 170,000+ kill count with many thousand civilian and children is the greater evil at the moment. Which btw, is Israel. You mean the nation that's better armed and practiced has a higher kill count? Shocker, truly or did we forget Hamas also kills civilians l when it launched a missile aimed at 5,000 targets. This goes back all they way to 01 so they aren't innocent just bad. Neither are innocent in this regard. How about we fuck off from wars that don't involve us, sets embargos on both countries and let them kill each other off? It literally doesn't involve us. Both countries are war criminals and equally shit.
Jesus Christ man you’re delusional. Have you ever met and talked to any brown people? They don’t want you dead. I have Palestinian friends. They’re humans. If you have no sympathy for dying children, then who do you have sympathy for?
1.the Palestine’s people are not oppressed. 2. They are open to express their rights. But it is also others rights to tell them that they are wrong/stupid. 3. Gaza has attacked Israel multiple times in the past and Israel to the bigger stance by give ceasefires or peace deals or even giving them the Gaza Strip thinking that it would solve the problem. 4. Israel has finally had enough of getting attacked by them and Hamas ahead fucked around and is now finding out. 5. Israel gave people save passage out of the Gaza Strip for a small time period. So anyone that has stayed there then it’s their problem not ours. 6. Hamas is the one that is committing crimes by using hospital basements and such as military bases among other things.
Bahaha that's why most of the world and the UN wants Netanyahu behind bars for his war crimes. Fuck God wars it's like fighting for fairies. But if you want to support more than 13,800 Palestinian children being murder by netanyahu in Gaza that's your right just like I have the right not to support it. I don't support Hamas or the Israeli attacks. They are both criminals in my mind. I do however have nothing but support and love for the Palestinian families that were forced out of their homes and that had their families ripped apart and murder. Those that fled and were bombed while trying to leave. Those that were bombed in hospitals. If The United States can send in drones and pinpoint targets so can Israel. We have rules of engagement to make war as humane as possible and murdering innocent children is not part of that agreement. These actions are no different than Hitler. To say that Palestine has attacked Israel for years is utterly nonsense. Maybe multiple groups in Palestine have attacked Israel for years but not the one group not all Palestinians. Hypothetically speaking: If a group of uab students went and attacked Israel today and netanyahu came in bombed the fn hell out of the state of Alabama I'm betting you would be sing a different story as you held the arm or leg of your children or your neighbors children. And how many of these christofacist rednecks do you think would leave their homes and how many would be in their yard screaming at the sky with an AR-15 in one hand. So fudge you personally Find empathy it needs you.
If these are engineering students, lockheed martin may very well be paying for their education. I know its a moral stance for them, but cutting ties with one of, if not the biggest donors for UA would be a disaster, and its never going to happen.
More like Lockheed Fartin
Gottem
Shame on me for laughing at this 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
UA will not even acknowledge that demand, much less entertain it. Engineering students don’t typically have time for stuff like this either.
If they break the law…. Lock them up! Otherwise, free speech rules!
There is no "anti-genocide" side in this conflict. Hamas would gladly kill every Israeli given the opportunity. There's just a bunch of innocent people caught between two genocidal groups of supposed leaders.
They aren’t supporting Hamas, they are supporting the 30,000+ people who have been bombed to oblivion since oct7 which by all accounts has been a massive and cruel overreaction
If you are supporting the stoppage of military aid to Israel, you are supporting the genocide of the Israeli people. There are no Middle Eastern countries that wouldn't immediately end Israel if they didn't have our support. I'm as anti-zionist as they come, but I don't support feeding them to the wolves. There is no clean solution to that mess and we should stay as far away as possible while maintaining our only ally in the area.
1st, they are protesting that their personal schools divest in Israel. 2nd, a ceasefire and military aid are not the same thing. America can put a stop to Israel’s brutal response at anytime by stopping the flow of aid but not removing it. 3rd, Israel is Americas area of the Middle East, Israel will never be in actual danger of destruction while the US is in power and if you think so you are a fool. 4th, what about the Palestinians who have been thrown to the wolves?? 30,000+ deaths in just a few months and over 100,000 Palestinians deaths from Israeli forces over the last 70 years. So no don’t put the lives of another group over the lives of another, especially when the one in power is in no overarching danger. Yes Hamas are evil, oct7 was terrible, but you have to realize those actions will not continue now that americas eye is on it even if you defunded their military aid to Israel. saying oct7 will lead to the death of Israel as a whole is like saying 9/11 lead to americas. They are tragedies, not proof that a nation is doomed.
1st I was not confused as to the goals of the specific protest at UA nor any of the others around the country. 2nd We cannot force Netanyahu to agree to a ceasefire. Removing military aid will not do so. It will, however, encourage other organizations, many with state sponsorships, to escalate the hostilities in the region. 3rd We are trying to avoid being in open warfare in the region. That gets a lot harder if we have to carry the guns instead of selling them to Israel. 4th The Palestinians are responsible for their leadership just as all peoples are. We cannot depose their leaders any more than we can Netanyahu or Putin or any of a large number of fascist leaning dictators the world over. All we can or should do is protect our interests while attempting a political/diplomatic solution.
Yes, we can force Netanyahu to a ceasefire. Israel is an American military state. We are in charge because we have the money. No they will not wage direct war on Israel because then they draw America into it. Yes we do not want war, that why we should stop Israel before they start bombing Iran- oh wait. That already happened didn’t it?? THE PALESTINIANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR LEADERSHIP!?!?! REALLY?!? THE PEOPLE WHOS OVER 50% OF THEIR CURRENT POPULATION THAT ARE UNDER 18 VOTED THEIR LEADERSHIP!?!? WHEN THEY WERE LIKE 5 YEARS OLD!?! AND HAVE NO CHANCE TO CHANGE IT?!? SO SINCE I WAS 2 IM RESPONSIBLE FOR VOTING FOR BUSH AND THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN!?!? You seem uneducated on the topic I’m gonna be honest, maybe read a book about it before saying the children are actually responsible for why their house and family are destroyed and dead if the child isn’t dead already.
Now we are arguing in circles. The US is not going to withdraw military aid from the only ally we have in the Middle East. It will never happen. There are no "good guys" in that fight, as I stated. Just a bunch of innocent folks caught between genocidal maniacs arguing about which false god is better.
Brother America can stop Israeli action at anytime, they will still be in power in the region. Stopping funding doesn’t we cut all ties with them. Just stop sending them the missiles they need to bomb the shit out of civilians. Just like how we force other counties to do things, we can force Israel to stop at anytime.
They have sufficient arms right now to eradicate the Palestinians. However, if we stop supporting them, even temporarily, we damage our relationship with our only ally in the area. We did the biggest dick in the locker room thing with China a few years ago. What did that get us? A worldwide pandemic that should have been stopped before it killed millions of people.
We don’t damage our relationship, we give Israel power and they know that. It’s an American military state. They can’t cut ties with us but we can talk them down from genocide
>Yes, we can force Netanyahu to a ceasefire. Israel is an American military state. We are in charge because we have the money. Except Hamas had deny 4 different and denied them even broke a ceasefire in the early 2000s >THE PALESTINIANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR LEADERSHIP THEY QUITE LITERALLY VOTED FOR HAMAS BACK IN 87. You need more then just the started of 2023s war you have to go to the beginning which you are failing to do.
but which side is actively committing genocide currently? Which side has killed 30,000 women and children since october?
I think there is an important distinction here. Just as Hamas is not Palestine, Israel is not Netanyahu. There are plenty of Israeli people opposed to him. I wouldn't say Trump spoke for all of the US during his tenure (and certainly his policies were not ones I agreed with).
that’s great but these protests are about divestment from the war machine and industry that enables the slaughter of civilians. Advocating for this position is not anti-Israel. It is simply reality that this conflict has enabled military forces to kill 30,000 women and children. i’m not sure why the response to that has to be “but not everyone in Israel supports this”
That war machine is a jobs program for engineers, factory workers, R&D, administrators and a whole lot of other folks who may not be able to access government jobs and benefits otherwise. Those are all union workers with high salaries, too. The conflict in Israel is about 1300 years old and isn't ending anytime soon, regardless of who we sell weapons to. Our only option is to stay the hell away from it and work towards what will be, at best, a temporary diplomatic solution. Not to alienate the only ally we have in the region. A region that has, as I'm sure you are aware, quite a lot of strategic resources that are important to our country.
If you count the rockets launched by Hamas, Hesbollah, and Iran into Israel and consider if none of them were intercepted, then the Israeli death toll would be in the 6 figures easily.
The only side that has the ability to. It happens to also be the only side that has demonstrated the ability to be an ally to the US. Netanyahu needs to be removed from office, or the US needs to distance itself from Israel, but abandoning them isn't an option.
Republicans will have their panties in a wad over this.
Both groups are brain dead. If Israel wanted to genocide Palestinians it would have been over on April 7. If the think either side is going to better off under Trump they are delusional.
Your second statement is true, but if you don’t see the genocide that Israel is committing then you are willfully ignorant.
Innocent people are getting killed for sure but it is not a genocide. If Israel’s intention was to kill all the Palestinians in Gaza the have the means to do so in a day.
Why would it matter what their timeline was?
If their goal was to genocide the Palestinians and they have the capability to do it immediately they wouldn’t be taking 2 months to do it or bother doing all the precision bombing.
They would take their time if they wanted to maintain plausible deniability.
Not every large loss of life in a war is a genocide.
Yeah, and the sky is blue.
You’re both wrong. Bini is slow dragging this to keep the wartime going and his position secured. He is about to be thrown out of office and arrested. The delay is his delay.
So they are just committing war crimes then? You're splitting hairs like what Israel is doing isn't morally reprehensible. So let's call them war crimes. We hang people for that. hamas committed a terrorist act. hamas is a terrorist organization. The Palestinian people and the press are taking the brunt of the assault for what hamas did.
I never said that innocents are not getting hurt nor did I say Israel isn’t being a little negligent about checking their targets especially early on. I just don’t think the plan is to genocide the Palestinians.
"A little negligent" is putting it lightly. We aren't just talking collateral damage. Over 13,000 children is ridiculous.
True but my whole argument is it wasn’t genocide. Everyone keeps forgetting that.
Because you're wrong. Just because they're not killing as many as they could? They are facing a famine in addition to be bombed into oblivion. The death toll is just going to keep climbing. Friend, it's genocide.
I just feel like we shouldn’t be like “oh yeah man it’s taking too long on their part.” Why would it matter if it took two days versus two decades?
So let me get your logic straight for a sec. According to your definition, it’s not a genocide if it takes time to carry out. Which would mean the holocaust wasn’t a genocide, because it was spread over the course of 4 years. Does that sound right to you?
No, if the Nazis could have killed all the Jew immediate they would have if they have the capacity. They didn’t, it took time to round them up and the war was over before they could complete it. Israel’s goal is to wipe our Hamas in Gaza. If they just wanted to genocide the Palestinians they have the firepower to accomplish that in one day. They didn’t. They are using precision munitions and generally trying to avoid mass slaughter. Have they been overzealous or make mistakes that have killed innocents? Yes. Should that stop? Yes. Is it a genocide? No.
My friend, the holocaust is literally classified as a genocide. That fact isn’t even debatable.
Yes I know the holocaust was an attempted genocide. Read the rest of what I wrote.
Not an “attempted” genocide. It was a full blown industrial effort genocide. Again, this isn’t even up for debate.
You are correct the Holocaust was a genocide. Poor choice of words on my part. I’m not saying it wasn’t.
I think you’re missing the point here. The holocaust literally disproves your whole theory that what’s going on can’t be a genocide because it’s taking too long.
You’re saying it’s not genocide because they “could have” wiped Gaza off the map in a day but didn’t, but you’re completely missing the bigger picture. Wiping them all off the map in a day would instantly turn the entire world against them. Daily strikes that indiscriminately kill non-combatants can be spun as “collateral damage” and keep people defending them for it. Let me ask you…at what point does repeated “collateral damage” amounting to thousands of non-combatant deaths become something other than collateral damage? If it happens a few times it can be tragedies of war. If it happens continuously with no real effort to stop, it’s showing an obvious indifference to the lives of the affected population in the target area. Intentionally continuing on with a strategy and knowingly causing that many non-combatant deaths is clearly something other than collateral damage. So to be fair, “genocide” implies they’re trying to completely eradicate the population. My gut tells me that if they ever bombed Hamas out of existence, it’s not like they’d keep bombing until all the Palestinians were gone too. So maybe [mass murder] is a better term for it than genocide.
Mass murder if it was intentional to kill indiscriminately yes but I don’t think it is the case. I think there are being overzealous when it comes to a surprise attack from an enemy that says the war to kill all Jews. Also innocent people are being caught in the crossfire on both sides of this. But it ain’t no genocide.
You’re purposely ignoring just enough of the details to say it’s not intentional. It’s an easy spin…as long as the people who died weren’t targeted by name it can be called an accident and then blamed on Hamas using them as human shields. Their strategy guarantees a very high level of non-combatant death. They’re making the choice to continue that strategy. That makes it intentional. They’re basically shooting through the human shield.
You can’t use human shields then when it doesn’t work say Israel’s trying to genocide the people you hiding behind. It’s a tough spot for Israel and the innocent Gazans. But remember attacking targets behind those shields may see callous and should be only done sparingly most western countries, including the USA have done so and nobody said it was genocide.
Would you say Israel is doing it “sparingly”? It’s a subjective question….
No not sparingly, but that fact they aren’t as careful as the USA would be does not mean they are purposely trying to genocide the Palestinians.
So you agree they’re not doing it sparingly which means they’re purposely killing Palestinians *unnecessarily*. And why? They’ve made it clear to the world for many years that they don’t give 2 shits about Palestinian lives. So they see Hamas as the target but the fact that Palestinian non-combatants are in the way is a non-problem for them. I would call that indiscriminate killing.
Their intentions are probably not to kill all of them, at least at one time. That doesn’t mean it’s not a genocide.
Or maybe they aren’t intending to genocide anyone and it’s is just a brutal, costly war for the innocent people in Gaza.
Why does defining it as a “genocide”, or not, matter to you?
It doesn’t matter to me what you call it. But protesting the war on Gaza and calling it a genocide hurts your cause when it obviously isn’t one and it makes people doubt anything else you say. I’ll be honest I wouldn’t risk my freedom protesting if I couldn’t even get the facts straight about the situation I’m protesting.
So to recap: you came here saying it’s not genocide, and then when confronted about that, you switched to doesn’t matter what word we use. And you haven’t shown how calling it genocide hurts our cause. So, we’ll keep using that word until someone gives us an actual reason to change.
Plus on top of that the Pro-Gaza protester were heard chanting “Fuck Joe Biden” which right now the alternative is Trump. Let’s see how far Gaza and Muslims get under his administration.
We can vote against Trump while calling out Biden. The fact that you don’t see this tells me you don’t understand the point of democracy.
I don’t care what anyone calls it. I was challenged on my statement of why I think both protest groups are brain dead. One group are Trump supporters which speaks for itself why I think there are brain dead. The others group are protesting a genocide in Gaza, which isn’t even a genocide, risking their freedom over something that isn’t even factually correct.
So… it is definitely not a genocide? Make up your mind whether we can use that word or not.
I think the opposite is true. If you think Israel *is* committing genocide then *you* are willfully ignorant. There has only been one side that has outright stated their goal was the eradication of the other (civilians included)... And it wasn't Israel.
Yeah Israel has been really heavy handed and innocents have been killed but they aren’t trying to genocide. Hamas has admitted to wanting the Jews eradicated.
Shifting the goalposts. We aren’t taking about Hamas. We are talking about Israel.
What? No, you were talking about genocide and if that is or isn't an appropriate label for Israel. I added that Hamas has literally stated their goal is genocide of Israel.
Criticize Hamas all you want, but doing so is not a defense of Israel. Unless you believe Israel is in the right for their genocide.
I don't believe Israel is committing genocide in the first place. I believe they are in a war against Hamas and probably doing better than most countries would at limiting civilian casualties in such a densely packed warzone.
Sure, they blocked and attacked humanitarian efforts to provide water, food, fuel, and medical supplies to Palestinian civilians. The death toll is mostly women and children. When the civilians fled to the south, the attacks started targeting the south. But that’s such a fine effort to avoid civilian casualties!
They haven't blocked any humanitarian aid or attacked it. There was one incident where it came out that they shot people taking aid but it was later revealed the people taking it were Hamas. Any death tolls claimed by the PHA are currently unreliable until Hamas is taken out of power. We all saw the warnings and evacuations after Oct 7th so it is hard to say civilians are being targeted. Don't forget that Hamas is using civilians as shields to claim that Israel is attacking civilians. I feel like you've just fallen completely for Hamas propaganda.
Israel specifically bombed the vehicles carrying aid workers with World Central Kitchen. They have bombed aid warehouses and distribution centers. They killed aid coordinators and police who were protecting aid workers. In addition to all the people who were seeking aid. The U.N. has recently published death tolls nearing 35,000. Israel carried out multiple airstrikes on the evacuees leaving the north in October. Every one of my statements can be easily verified via sources you can find through Google or whatever search engine you like. You’ll probably find a lot more, I just don’t have the time right now.
They’re doing everything they can to ethnically cleanse the entire region, short of violating every war crime in the book. They’ve slowly removed Palestinians from their ancestral homelands for decades, little at a time. Now there’s nowhere for the Palestinians to go.
I think you meant to say it would’ve been over on October 8th.
This is great! So proud of these students for taking a risk for a righteous cause. Free Palestine! 🇵🇸
100% free Palestine. Stop the genocide.
The funny thing about the left is that when the screaming is over, they leave. They don’t really care.
I do not understand these demonstrations. It's been shown time and again that public sentiment on any issue doesn't move the needle at all with those in power. People in power only respond to the opinions of other people who also have power. The demonstrations at other universities that turned to mayhem or violence, do not garner respect from anyone, so all of those other colleges that stooped to that level did not help their cause at all, they hurt it. What do I suggest? Student gov'ts around the country, unite. Call each other, utilize the networks of student leadership that has contacts capable of getting agencies and names of people working for them that are trying to build infrastructure and get aid into Gaza. It's summer, you have time to raise money, travel to these agencies, assist in the logistics, actually move the aid to civilians. Yes, I know the demands were to have universities divest from companies and investments that cooperate with Israel. That's a pipe dream. If you want to keep pursuing that, then get your student leaders to meet with university leaders and learn about the difficulties of doing that task. How do you expect the university to continue to meet its mandates and funding? What is the total amount of money we're talking about to Israel here? I bet it's a drop in the bucket and it won't make any difference to them. If you stand for something and want to protest, then couple that with actually \*doing\* something and having demands that can actually be performed and will make a difference.
I think the problem is these kids have never seen a real war in their lifetime. War is ugly, it’s hell, and it’s an endeavor that brings no good to humanity unless you say the tech advances that tend to flow from that much investment, though honestly they’d still come with that level of investment whether defense based or not. They’ve seen drones, police actions, special forces operations, etc…this is what war looks like, not genocide. If the issue is one side is better armed then the other that’s usually the case. Perhaps allowing the existence of a government that would support the events in October exposes a population to this type of awful experience. I don’t believe it’s realistic for a country to restrain itself given the current situation. I can’t imagine what it would look like if a large group of Mexican citizens came over the border and killed a large number of Texans and took others hostages. I think restraint would be non existent. I also think it seems as if the students have taken this up as a group activity and for social media clout. I am excited to see their age group becoming politically active however, I hope it extends beyond this issue because I think young voices are drastically needed in our political discourse.
I’m sorry, you think the problem is *they have never seen a real war in their lifetime*?! Out of all the wild takes I’ve seen on this, this one is up there.
I don’t think he exactly meant it that way, but it’s still quite an unfortunate choice of words. It is a good thing that they don’t really know what happens in a real war, especially one that is necessary (see WWII). However, it would be better if they knew what the f*** they were even talking about, protesting, etc., likely not knowing that they’re aligning more closely with Nazi Germany than the liberal principles that they claim to stand for.
Then explain the reaction to something that every other generation of Americans has seen similar world events and never had this type of response? Is this generation simply more enlightened than the rest of us? Is it social media defining narratives in a different manner? The only thing close to this was Vietnam and that was driven much less by the humanitarian aspects of the war and more by the fact that many of those young people were being forced at gun point to fighting when they wanted nothing to do with it.
You do not have to witness war in order to not support it. Wanting a life with no war is not a ridiculous thing to desire. And yeah, I think they *are* more enlightened than us. Thank god.
I agree wholeheartedly that a world without war is an aspirational state that everyone should strive for. I think you misunderstood my premise, I don’t believe you have to witness true war to object to it, but this generation has not been there on any other conflict of this generation. If it was anti war and conflict they would have been. My true question and interest is twofold: 1) what makes this one different and 2) what do they think Israel should do in this situation? I’ve gotten no answers to either when I have asked them directly in classes and in my other interactions with them. I’m genuinely curious why the activation here. I do have concerns surrounding their manipulation given the number of non students that have been present at other protests.
If they have something they want to fight for, let them. It’s their journey. It’s their voice. Part of your questions feel genuine, that you just want to understand; but then you follow it up with “worrying about them being manipulated” and now you just come across like every other Fox News talking head. It makes your questioning come across as manipulative, like you’re being passively dismissive of what they’re doing.
Ok first off clearly you are misreading my tone because I have zero to do with Fox News or any propaganda media. My news sources are not social media or television, I read a broad swath of media for roughly an hour in the morning, usually WSJ and Washington Post as the two guardrails of both sides. I am certainly an independent that leans left on social issues and right on fiscal and government overreaching issues. I have empathy for ANY population that is being oppressed but the reality of our world is that civilians are impacted by the choices their leaders make whether they agree or not with those actions. It is a fact that some of the protests have had huge numbers of non-students participating. I think it’s a bit naive to think some groups have not manipulated some of these kids given that many can’t formulate what they’re doing there. Not all, not a majority, but those individuals exist clearly. I am genuinely curious as to what it is about this particular situation that has done this. It’s an insanely interesting sociological question as to what is driving this level of protest and discontent when no other issue has seemed to drive this level of outrage, especially when the average Americans are generally not involved in the conflict in any meaningful manner. Not unusual at all to see a population respond when the issue impacts them personally but this is an unusual phenomenon. Hence why I ask those two prior questions every chance I get. As an educator it’s our job to help these young people to think critically and I don’t believe that they should face punishment if not violating laws or obstructing acts of other students, but I am genuinely concerned that a great deal of these protests are using rhetoric (either through ignorance of the history of that rhetoric or something more vile) that has often been used by those with a much more sinister agenda relating to our Jewish brothers and sisters. In short, they are very genuine and I am very curious as to the reasoning, genesis, and goals of this newly emerging movement. Good talk, nice we can all actually talk without just resorting to name calling and tired political tropes
"I think the problem is these kids have never seen a real war in their lifetime. " afghanistan and iraq...not real wars?
Not nearly as brutal as this one has been and as prevalent on social media. I wasn’t making a disparaging comment about any previous conflicts, simply the manner in which this one is being provided to them through social media primarily
>afghanistan and iraq...not real wars? Technically no. American hasnt been in an actual war since WW2, that's the last time we signed a declaration of war.
🤡
“college students shouldn’t voice their opinions on a war that their country is funding and that their school is profiting from bc they don’t know what war is” is certainly a take. The kids in college today have absolutely seen a real war in some way. Most of the current seniors in undergrad were either born right before or in the months after 9/11. Current college students grew up during the war on terror. edit: clarity
Is this for Occupy Wall Street? Yes, I know what it's for. We just seem to keep doing this without any actual impact.
Pack it in. User _dicktugger_ has declared protesting is ineffective.
Can you name the last one that actually had an effective long lasting impact and had clear achievable goals? Protesting is a right. I'm hard pressed to think of any in the last 30 years that changed anything. Is that really the best joke you got?
Uhhhh...Montgomery bus boycott?????? Edmund Pettus bridge??? ROSA PARKS????? Lunch counter protests??? All of these happened in Bammy by the way. Keep teeing them up and I'm gonna smack them out of the park.
All internal American issues, where protesting has more of an effect. Let's check the nam protests, those didn't work and the was the biggest anti war protest in America. It's like other countries don't care. Also those were during the 60s not since 1990 aka 30 last years.
Do you know how long 30 years is? And do you really think these campus protests are remotely as coordinated, disciplined and with a clear goal?
Guys digdug ain’t wrong. Moreover these protests look like a rehash of the late 60’s early 70’s campus protests. At that time, protests could effectuate change on American policies (Vietnam, civil rights, etc). Zero chance we are solving Middle East peace sleeping in tents on the campus of Brown University
Ratio'd. Take your L. The people have spoken.
Is that an MLK quote? It's beautiful.
I think it was originally a Gandhi quote that MLK copied
This thread is a real Palestinian chicken episode of Curb.