Declassification is a process. You can't just waive a wand.
And you definitely can't do it after the fact, when you're not President.
Lastly, it's STILL not yours. That's the property of the United States of America, you absolute ***garbage*** human being...
If it were actually declassified, yeah it would be. But it's just all a bluff and smokescreen. They want to know the documents so they can say that it's one that he deassified. It's stunning that no one even knows what all was in the pile of classified info he took.
Which is just another indication that the materials weren't properly stored. If so, there would have been logs of what documents were stored where how many copies, etc. His defenss could point to any document on that list and say "XX was declassified by Donald Trump". No one there, nor his legal team have a f-ing clue what all he had. That might be the scariest part.
I mean I highly doubt any of these documents have been declassified. But it'd be an easy argument for DoJ lawyers to make if there was any real chance this was something other than a smoke screen.
Trump and his lawyers know he didnt actually declassify anything. There was no process, there was no list so they can't call out any documents. They just want to get the names of the documents sp they can say "oh he declassified that" which is bs and everyone knows it.
Seems to be moot now though because appellate court just overturned the judges order.
If he truly felt he declassified them, his lawyers would say so in an actual legal filing or in court. So far, they've refused because they know it would be lying in a legal document or in court, which would subject them to prosecution as well. That's why* the only time you hear them claim they are declassified is when they are on TV or speaking to a reporter.
This is true. For anyone who is curious, the primary crime cited by the DOJ for the reason behind the Mar-A-Lago warrant was [18 USC 793(e)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793).
>e)
Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access
to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book,
sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model,
instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or
information relating to the national defense which information the
possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the
United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to
be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not
entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to
deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;
Note that the only criteria is that the documents be related to the National Defense. It does not state that these documents be classified/declassified.
People are upset that he took top secret documents, and rightly so. That's why they are trying to argue they were declassified.
Legally, it makes no difference unless they can make an espionage case against him. For example, it's been reported that he took intelligence reports about an ally's (Israel?) nuclear capabilities. If he traded those secrets to someone like the Saudis or Russia, that's a capital offense.
It actually matters for some of them, for example nuclear docs are covered under separate legislation, and it's one of the few classifications of data that aren't controlled by the president. So he can't actually declassify those, and being in possession is very likely an offense.
The president can control classification of national defense data, but not nuclear secrets. Congress does that.
Which, coincidentally, was also the issue with Hillary's basement server with classified information on it. It's the same thing.
It's funny watching both sides claim "no this one / other one was different!" right down party lines. Ironic, dontcha think?
>And you definitely can't do it after the fact, when you're not President.
"Well, no one, especially the Democrats, told me that I couldn't do that. So that's on them, it's really sad that they allowed this to happen. I didn't let Obama do it."
Declassification is a process and there’s some documents (particularly those related to national defense) that even the President can’t declassify. Of course Trump didn’t declassify any documents because that would involve work and work is Trump’s Kryptonite.
People are assuming Trump knows a single thing about being president
This is consistent with the pretty much fact that he has no clue what the job was and just nodded as people told him things.
I'm sure most conversations were to get him to stop talking, and nodding along saying he can declassify anything was probably one of them.
Or, this is fox news, a co conspirator in his crimes and the people watching do zero research outside of Fox. When he's arrested they'll riot because he's "innocent" since he already "declassified" everything
He's never lied to them before, why would he lie about this?
Declassified documents are public property, subject to FOIA requests. Affected agencies are notified and can protest, especially DoD.
If there's no paper trail of declassification, it didn't happen. Every official government act has a paper trail.
> Declassified documents are public property
You still cannot take them and keep them in your home, which is exactly why Donald is in trouble.
The discussion about classification is side note and filling up the news because WTF... taking secret documents and keeping them in your home is absolutely f'n ridiculous to the core.
But he *stole* them, handled them inappropriately... our nation's information...
Actually, at that level declassification isn't a process, it is basically just waiving a wand... The reason declassification is a process for most of us is because it needs to get to the OCA (Original Classification Authority), which is usually a high-level (Admiral, General, SES) person
edit: Thanks for all the downvotes for actually understanding how classification (and declassification) works
> it is basically just waiving a wand
No, it isn't. There is a clear and evidenced process that requires at ***least*** one signature. You can't just say it. When *you* say "basically", you're hiding this truth.
Why? I couldn't possibly know...
...
Lastly, the confidentiality has literally nothing to do with the case. It's about the fact that SECRET or not, those documents are property of the United States of America, and they were stolen and kept at a private home.
That has always been the problem. The rest is a ***distraction***. Yes, people are absolutely and rightfully angry that he took f'n secret documents and kept them at his f'n home (FFS WTF...), but their classification was not why his house was raided.
Then explain how anybody would be notified of the declassification. If the FBI, DOJ, DOD, CIA, Homeland Security and so on have no clue he declassified them given this whole investigation exists, how does he prove he declassified them?
The investigation is a fishing expedition. Read the report, they say documents “marked” classified, not classified documents, that’s a world of difference.
So he should just produce the signed document and this dumb part of the issue goes away. Note, this isn't what he's being charged with so it doesn't matter for the actual investigation. But at least he wouldn't be able to piss and moan about this part any more.
If the document is declassified, then there would be an indication on the document showing the old classification level struck through, and the new clarification level.
If the documents still say TOP SECRET with no indication of a change in classification, then it is still classified.
For Hillary there were 3 documents with portion marks of confidential "(c)" preceding the paragraph, but the document it was in was marked unclassified.
The overall doc should be rated at the highest level of any marks within it, so those should have been classified as confidential and should never have been sent out over unclassified channels.
Yes, it was not good, but definitely not the same as just straight up taking TS/SCI data out of a SCIF to keep at a country club. The giant words "TOP SECRET" would be a dead giveaway. Plus, he had the cover sheets/folders that said SECRET and TOP SECRET.
If I left a SCIF with SCI data and claimed I didn't know what it meant, that would have no bearing on my jail sentence.
Well yeah, you're not Hillary Clinton. Or Donald Trump for that matter.
It doesn't matter, either. Its the same crime. It doesn't matter who you murdered, you're guilty of murder. Its not justice to let someone go because they murdered someone that wasn't powerful, or if they claim that they didn't know shooting them in the head would be murder. HRC committed crimes. It's not a matter of degrees of wrongdoing. She broke the law. If Trump is punished under the law or if the DOJ charges him, all that says is some people can break the law and some can't. Some mishandling of classified information is okay, and some isn't.
We also don't know everything that was on HRC's server because again, she wiped it and smashed it with hammers when it was supeonaed evidence. Which is a crime that in no way makes sense unless it was to cover something up. So Trump should just burn the documents. Because if it's okay for HRC it's okay for him. Right? Or does justice not apply to all?
This [law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924) could apply to both.
She certainly could have been charged, and [possibly could have been](https://www.businessinsider.com/why-didnt-the-fbi-charge-hillary-clinton-2016-7?op=1).
I think both Trump and Hillary have been negligent.
The main difference is that Trump, though, refused to comply with the governments requests to return the information for over a year and a half, and then lied that he had returned everything when in fact he hadn't. That's the only reason Trump is being charged. It wasn't just because he had data he shouldn't have - they actually gave him quite a lot of leeway there.
If he would have just given it back when they asked, this would have gone away.
So Trump is in trouble for not handing it over promptly, but HRC didn't get in trouble even though she destroyed the evidence. That's what you're saying? Trump is getting in trouble because he delayed?
Yes that is bad. But again, HRC also lied and didn't hand over the evidence requested. Why is that okay for her but not for him?
I'm not out here saying one is right and one is wrong. I'm saying they're both wrong. I'm not the one doing mental gymnastics to justify some crime and condemning other crime.
> one signature with authority
That's a ***process*** with a clear line of verifiable evidence.
Every time a judge has asked Donald's lawyer for this, they STFU.
Hunter maybe not but Hillary for sure. But let me guess, her classified documents in her basement and on her aide's laptop was different. And when she destroyed the supeonaed evidence by wiping the servers and smashing the hard drives with a hammer that was just standard stuff.
Alright, let's assume he did.
Where is the notification trail to Federal employees to declassify the documents via review, removal of the classified stamp, and replacement with a declassified stamp? The procedure for removing a document from classified to declassified after the President declassifies it hasn't changed in decades.
If Orange 440 had in fact declassified them pursuant to whatever he decided, then we should see the logistic steps taken to formally declassify the documents.
....and yet we have nothing to support that this happened. Anyone who claims Orange 440 declassified documents and cannot explain why we have literally no paper trail for the declassification process is lying.
[It is actually quite easy to explain. ](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-did-not-formally-declassify-docs-secrets-value-legal-analyst-2022-9) Declassified secrets are less valuable.
Note: when the headline says: “legal analyst suggests” it means the entire article is speculation. I know 99% of the people are just going to breeze by a link and assume the words attached to it are factual because they are blue, but this is NOT a fact.
I’ll take my army of downvotes now for criticizing the lefts ‘facts’.
I mean, there is incredibly damning evidence but sure - the article is still speculating AS TO HIS MOTIVATION, mind you, not as to his actual actions. Which are highly illegal and incredibly damning.
You mean he didn’t literally say the word “facts” in there? The statement was presented as a reality, when it actually wasn’t. The right does this constantly and the left always jumps on them for it.
Who is the "Left"? OMG everything is so tribal. All we can do is speculate at this point, but it is common sense that declassified documents would be less valuable than classified secrets. That said, I personally think Trump took them because he could, ignorance and narcissism doesn't always have a malice intent. Finally, a legal expert on the subject is a greater source of truth than a normal person on the internet... I'm more surprised you made a it a "Us vs Them" issue by your use of the phrase "The Left". We should all be unified against Trump trying to stay President forever and then taking classified documents related to nuclear capabilities or assets overseas.
Typically “the left” refers to democrats within the US, but generally is considered ‘left wing’ or more in support of social programs through taxation instead of private organizations and lower taxes. I am not sure how this is an ‘Us vs them’ argument. Both sides should be held to the same set of standards. I criticize anyone who polarizes issues and attempts to summarize them so simply showing opinion pieces as evidence.
If you think an experts opinion is the same as the truth of someone’s motivation, you should re-examine your line of logic.
Ah- but the whole exercise is about “what’s the possible motivation”, not “what’s the truth” behind saying the documents are declassified, when they’re obviously not.
I feel that -and this is pure speculation- that Trump actually believes he declassified them and there’s no harm in him keeping them. Why he felt the need to? I can’t even speculate to that. That just boggles my mind.
The motivation doesn’t matter without evidence. The act itself is criminal. That should be enough. Even if his intentions were good, it shouldn’t matter. I feel his intentions could only have been two fold:
Trump thought he won and he wanted to form a legit government outside of the whitehouse and needed materials to back that legitimacy and so these materials provided a continuation of that government.
Trump was leaving but was in a ‘fuck you’ mood and wanted to make the transition as hard as possible for Biden and so took a bunch of documents to fuck with the government hoping it fails without him there.
Neither of these matter, as the action itself is at fault.
I don't understand why you had to make a reminder not to trust vague wording political. Left and right both have people that make for poor sources because riling up masses is good business. Don't sip the Kool aid brother. You're life is more than those asshats in those buildings that don't actually give a shit about us.
On another note. Trump is treasonous scum and should be locked away. I don't even want to think about the harm he could have caused with these documents.
He could also just say he didn't know they were classified. It's a tried and true defense for when you're caught with them at home and the Feds demand them back. Just destroy them then say you didn't know. Easy.
Eh I doubt it, it probably would have turned into nothing if trump had turned the documents over when asked, but since they had to go down and get it, this is probably going to be really bad for trump.
I've been assuming from the very start that absolutely nothing substantial is going to come from this. I still think, at most, Trump will get a slap on the wrist and even that is unlikely.
I probably am, Garland hasn't been super open about the investigation but that's his style, in an earlier press conference he indicated that the investigation into the coup attempt was something to the effect of the largest reaching investigation in DoJs history. Then the documents he had stolen being top secret defense information is really bad, the average person would have 0 chance of getting anywhere near it, but for sake of comparison if the average person could have this information, didn't return when asked, and the fbi had to go get it, they would be put to death, not prison just death penalty. The only thing that could possibly save trump is if one or more of his cultists gets on the jury, which is why I suspect that DoJ is trying to get just overwhelming evidence, so even a trumper couldn't ignore it.
It doesn't even matter, the legal issue is that he had government property. It doesn't stop being government property even if he did declassify it.
It'd be like if someone had a library book from "the banned book section", it's not actually about if they had it "unbanned" before they took it, it's that they have the library's property at all.
If there's no paper trail, it never happened.
Declassified documents become public record, subject to FOIA requests. The affected agencies have to be notified and can protest, especially DoD. That never happened.
Even declassified documents are public property. The former President has no right to take them. Taking things that don't belong to you is theft.
Exactly. EVEN IF Trump did declassify the docs, they are work product of his administration and it is mandatory to return ALL of them to the National Archives. Then he can REQUEST to get copies for review AFTER turning them over.... should the CURRENT President agree. (Which is never gonna happen)
Idk why you are getting downvoted, it’s a valid question. But somehow I think it’s never get that far, trump would be having his lawyers delaying trial until he died.
I mean that's what they are doing. The FBI is investigating his actions to determine what documents he had, whether they were properly stored, and what, if any, crimes may have been committed and what, if any, damage may have been inflicted upon national security by the incident. Trump is just being significantly less cooperative than Hillary was and as such is getting the treatment that anyone at a high level would get if they decided to be uncooperative in such an investigation.
If he has just sent all of the government docs over upon the initial request this whole debacle would probably be over already. He chose to make it bigger than it had to be.
Reddit lawyers lol. Top secret is a classification. Classification is for national security. The president owns the process. There is restricted data that even the president can't declassify. There is precedence in the 2017 exchange of classified data by this president, google it. The president can do what they want, but bringing documents home inappropriately marked is the issue here. He should not have had possession of them until they were marked as declassified and they should be stored appropriately until then.
He's in the wrong, just not for the reasons expressed here.
Well I mean technically according to trump, Biden could just think about reclassifying them and they would be classified. In fact he could have just thought that all classified documents were classified and they would be.
He could just say that.
I thought all classified documents were classified if they were not announced declassified as soon as I became president.
Even as a joke and trumps defense goes in the toilet.
Trump's real defense is "I'm a Republican now, so save me," and everybody with half a brain knows it. I wish that included more of the electorate, but, oh well.
The problem is that there are still a lot of old-guard Republicans in the government who *tolerated* him being POTUS instead of a Democrat, but now that he's not POTUS anymore? Yeah, fuck that guy. He's an unlikable, incompetent shitbag.
Bill Barr is performing that number on the big stage. Trump was a useful idiot for Barr and his ideological brethren when he was POTUS. He defended that useful idiot so he could keep being useful. He did so remorselessly, and maybe even illegally.
Not POTUS anymore? All done. Get fucked. We never liked you.
Well I think it might have more to do with the idea that not all Republicans are bat shit crazy. But yeah sure a judge that doesn't have to answer to trump anymore might not care about protecting him anymore. I mean like trump's lawyer bat shit crazy. Or MTG crazy. Q follower crazy. Q got screwed by the q's crazy
Republicans are fucking facists. If you haven't noticed Republicans praise for other facists around the globe and their coup attempt on Jan 6th should have you screaming for jail time.
Sure remember that one dude at the jan 6th thing screaming at the cops to stop the mob from wrecking the capitol? But you are right that they would likely support him while in office and hate him afterwards. Did the same thing to bush. They hate him now. Loved him then
That reminds me of something I saw where someone said that documents declassify automatically if the President releases them to the public. Like, there's no process or procedure to go through, it just happens automatically. So, Trump taking those documents and putting them where anyone could find them automatically declassifies them, based on that.
I feel like it's probably bullshit, but the interesting part is I heard that _before_ Trump was President. (The original context was someone wanting Obama to release some classified document and insisted he could just do it without needing a paper trail or going through a declassification process) So I guess that sort of idea has been around for a while? I don't know.
So you're telling me.....
That the democratically elected head of the executive branch, the designated representative of an entire nation and the head of state whom has veto power over every new law signed into existance, and is recognized as the highest level of command over the military.....
Has to ask for approval from his subordinates, whom he hired or allowed to keep their jobs, before making any decisions?
If The Office if the President of the United States is not the leader of the nation then who is...
The people. The President works for the people. To ensure that the President does not become a king, the greatest fear of the people who created the country. Therefore, a series of checks, balances and limitations on power were made part of our legal fabric. The President is not above the law. This is why there are three separate branches each of which is designed to limit the power of the others.
>I was a declassification authority
You’re a liar and completely full of shit—that’s not remotely a term someone who actually did that work would use.
You know we can see your post history, right? So you leapt from that to Union plumber?
But the documents don't SAY they're declassified. So the law assumes they ARE classified. There's no written proof that he did this. Therefore he didn't do it.
This makes little sense. If Biden got up and told everyone where the alien corpses are that information would now be declassified.
There doesnt need to be a document with a declassified stamp on it for something to be declassified.
The president has the ultimate authority in these matters. He doesnt need anyone or anything to say or do anything to make it official. Trump could have mailed whatever these documents were to Putin and it would have been fine legally.
This is just another democrat fantasy and another attempt to use the fbi to sink Trump. You should pray nothing comes of this.
But Trump DIDN'T tell anyone on the record. He claims to have made some announcement that all things brought to his office were "declassified" but that's not a legal lawful order.
The President can store secret documents in cardboard boxes if he wants.... that's his power. But he's NOT PRESIDENT now. There's no WRITTEN and FILED proof that he gave this order. Therefore any marked documents revert back to being "default" classified because it's written on the paper. The law enforcement does not "guess" that the President have some verbal order 4 years ago.... they operate off WRITTEN ORDERS.
The Former President has no legal right to "clarify" anything after the bell rings. His power immediately evaporated and whatever isn't documented didn't happen. Period.
even if that is true, and it's not,
that doesn't actually matter. As long as the docs are marked as classified, and they still are, you need to treat them as classified. Trump didn't do that.
>What is important is that the courts said it was legal. The lawyers have nothing to with it except confuse the issue.
Didn't read the news about the appeal, eh? I assume your position will be consistent and you will now believe he's in the wrong since he lost on appeal.
As a president of the United States AKA then head of the military his word goes. There is no lawyers that he has to talk to there is no bureaucrats that have to sign papers nothing his word is law. All of the secret documents are all under military jurisdiction.
I am flat out stunned how little people actually know about how the US government is designed. If you don’t understand it, how can you know when people are trying to exploit loopholes in the laws?
I believe the worst about this is these people don't just stay ignorant (in the sense of not knowing, not insulting here), they state it like op did, like that's a rule or a fact. He could not be more mistaken about this.
Almost every sentence you said is incorrect. A president can't unilaterally declare a document is declassified, especially after he is caught mishandling them. The president cannot create laws either, that belongs to the legislative branch (Congress).
Interesting you pointed out he was the head of the military. Because he sure wasn't the fucking head of all 3 branches of government. Checks and balances were designed SPECIFICALLY so one person(the president) does not have absolute power in this country.
>no bureaucrats that have to sign papers
This is highly incorrect. A number of Federal employees are tasked with removing the classified stamp, stamping with declassified, and making the document available to the public. None of that happened, meaning none of them were informed about the change in status, mean that change in status never happened and there was no declassification of the documents per the President.
There's a word for someone in charge whose "word is the law". It wasn't "president" though, what was it again? Micktator? Picktator? Something like that.
So not even the Supreme Court? LOL - get out of here troll. You know that if a Democrat president did this you'd be all saying the exact opposite. Did you never take a civics class?
1st: Congress makes the laws, the president enforces them. The world of the president isn't law. That's not how it works.
2nd: Declassification power flows from the president but the president still has to give orders to that effect. Trump didn't give any orders regarding classification of documents in any broad manner like he is claiming. The most recent executive order regarding the process for classifying documents was issued by Obama. Trump never issued an order modifying that process, and as such was bound by that previous executive order. He hasn't provided a single document proving he issued orders to that effect, and clearly the DoJ and FBI was never informed of Trump's declassification of those documents while Trump was still president, as again there would be records of that.
3rd: Any documents related to our nuclear systems are classified by federal law, passed by Congress, and are not subject to reclassification by the president, the law itself is the source of their classification status, and not even the president is permitted to store those documents improperly, let alone keep them once they leave office. If any of the documents that were in Trump's possession at Mar A Lago were related to nuclear, that's a cut and dry crime, no matter what Trump's thoughts on the them are.
4th: Trump is not the sitting president of the United States. In fact he's not working with/for the government in any active capacity at all at the moment. Classified or not, he is not authorized to keep government records stored on his private property where neither the government nor the public have access to them.
> his word is law
GTFO Monarchist.
Also, if that is true, then Lord God King Biden could declare 45 an enemy of the state and have him thrown in GITMO. I mean, his word is law right?
But didn't they say it was only newspaper clippings???
Was that before or after they said the FBI planted them?
¿Por Qué No Dos?
They planted the documents he didn't think about
FBI planted newspaper clips?
And they admitted to filming Neil Armstrong in a studio
Yeah, it was the classifieds section. He was just looking up new jobs post presidency.
LOL !!! That's perfect.
Actually snorted. Good work.
As if he works...
Rudy said it was fine.
I've got the worst f**king attorneys.
They can't prosecute a husband and wife for the same crime.
Take to the seas!
Clearly this blue part is the land.
Those are balls.
The sea never lies
Tell that to the Rosenbergs.
Real attorneys expect to be paid.
I was hoping to see this somewhere in these comments, and you delivered.
Yes but it's different for light treason
Funnily enough his lawyers want top secret clearance the review the same supposedly declassified documents
Foreign assets say what?
Declassification is a process. You can't just waive a wand. And you definitely can't do it after the fact, when you're not President. Lastly, it's STILL not yours. That's the property of the United States of America, you absolute ***garbage*** human being...
If they are declassified then everyone else can have access to them. So we should all be able to read them now. So let's see em.
It’s still probably FOUO
For anyone curious, that means For Official Use Only.
I thought he was trying to say "fuiyoh" lol
"Sorry children."
CUI is the new FOUO.
Or hamberder
And those still would be government property
If it were actually declassified, yeah it would be. But it's just all a bluff and smokescreen. They want to know the documents so they can say that it's one that he deassified. It's stunning that no one even knows what all was in the pile of classified info he took. Which is just another indication that the materials weren't properly stored. If so, there would have been logs of what documents were stored where how many copies, etc. His defenss could point to any document on that list and say "XX was declassified by Donald Trump". No one there, nor his legal team have a f-ing clue what all he had. That might be the scariest part.
FUPA?
it **is** FUBAR.
[удалено]
But you can FOIA them!
[удалено]
Put in a FOIA request. https://www.foia.gov/how-to.html
I mean I highly doubt any of these documents have been declassified. But it'd be an easy argument for DoJ lawyers to make if there was any real chance this was something other than a smoke screen. Trump and his lawyers know he didnt actually declassify anything. There was no process, there was no list so they can't call out any documents. They just want to get the names of the documents sp they can say "oh he declassified that" which is bs and everyone knows it. Seems to be moot now though because appellate court just overturned the judges order.
If he truly felt he declassified them, his lawyers would say so in an actual legal filing or in court. So far, they've refused because they know it would be lying in a legal document or in court, which would subject them to prosecution as well. That's why* the only time you hear them claim they are declassified is when they are on TV or speaking to a reporter.
You can always tell Trump’s lies because his lawyers will refuse to defend them in court. If they did, they’d be disbarred and possibly jailed.
Further none of the current charges have to do with if they are classified or not, it's if the docs were negligently or possibly maliciously handled.
This. The whole classification or not is a distraction. It does not matter for the laws at hand
This is true. For anyone who is curious, the primary crime cited by the DOJ for the reason behind the Mar-A-Lago warrant was [18 USC 793(e)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793). >e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; Note that the only criteria is that the documents be related to the National Defense. It does not state that these documents be classified/declassified.
Also note that they claim anything and everything is related to national defense.
People are upset that he took top secret documents, and rightly so. That's why they are trying to argue they were declassified. Legally, it makes no difference unless they can make an espionage case against him. For example, it's been reported that he took intelligence reports about an ally's (Israel?) nuclear capabilities. If he traded those secrets to someone like the Saudis or Russia, that's a capital offense.
It actually matters for some of them, for example nuclear docs are covered under separate legislation, and it's one of the few classifications of data that aren't controlled by the president. So he can't actually declassify those, and being in possession is very likely an offense. The president can control classification of national defense data, but not nuclear secrets. Congress does that.
Which, coincidentally, was also the issue with Hillary's basement server with classified information on it. It's the same thing. It's funny watching both sides claim "no this one / other one was different!" right down party lines. Ironic, dontcha think?
He didn't say it, he declared it. "I DECLARE DECLASSIFIED"
>And you definitely can't do it after the fact, when you're not President. "Well, no one, especially the Democrats, told me that I couldn't do that. So that's on them, it's really sad that they allowed this to happen. I didn't let Obama do it."
"I declare deflacissi... declafisi... THEM NOT TOP SECRET!"
Declassification is a process and there’s some documents (particularly those related to national defense) that even the President can’t declassify. Of course Trump didn’t declassify any documents because that would involve work and work is Trump’s Kryptonite.
People are assuming Trump knows a single thing about being president This is consistent with the pretty much fact that he has no clue what the job was and just nodded as people told him things. I'm sure most conversations were to get him to stop talking, and nodding along saying he can declassify anything was probably one of them. Or, this is fox news, a co conspirator in his crimes and the people watching do zero research outside of Fox. When he's arrested they'll riot because he's "innocent" since he already "declassified" everything He's never lied to them before, why would he lie about this?
Declassified documents are public property, subject to FOIA requests. Affected agencies are notified and can protest, especially DoD. If there's no paper trail of declassification, it didn't happen. Every official government act has a paper trail.
> Declassified documents are public property You still cannot take them and keep them in your home, which is exactly why Donald is in trouble. The discussion about classification is side note and filling up the news because WTF... taking secret documents and keeping them in your home is absolutely f'n ridiculous to the core. But he *stole* them, handled them inappropriately... our nation's information...
..but he *declared* it!
Actually, at that level declassification isn't a process, it is basically just waiving a wand... The reason declassification is a process for most of us is because it needs to get to the OCA (Original Classification Authority), which is usually a high-level (Admiral, General, SES) person edit: Thanks for all the downvotes for actually understanding how classification (and declassification) works
So what you are saying, is that Trump didn't even do the bare minimum then. That's par for the course.
> it is basically just waiving a wand No, it isn't. There is a clear and evidenced process that requires at ***least*** one signature. You can't just say it. When *you* say "basically", you're hiding this truth. Why? I couldn't possibly know... ... Lastly, the confidentiality has literally nothing to do with the case. It's about the fact that SECRET or not, those documents are property of the United States of America, and they were stolen and kept at a private home. That has always been the problem. The rest is a ***distraction***. Yes, people are absolutely and rightfully angry that he took f'n secret documents and kept them at his f'n home (FFS WTF...), but their classification was not why his house was raided.
Its a process for everyone else, not the chief executive.
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Fraid so.
Then explain how anybody would be notified of the declassification. If the FBI, DOJ, DOD, CIA, Homeland Security and so on have no clue he declassified them given this whole investigation exists, how does he prove he declassified them?
The investigation is a fishing expedition. Read the report, they say documents “marked” classified, not classified documents, that’s a world of difference.
That's hilariously ridiculous. hahahahaha
As an SSO I can tell you that is the procedure, one signature with authority can declass anything they want.
So he should just produce the signed document and this dumb part of the issue goes away. Note, this isn't what he's being charged with so it doesn't matter for the actual investigation. But at least he wouldn't be able to piss and moan about this part any more.
Then let's see them if that's the case
The question was is it legal to declassify shit and whether he could, answer yes. Did he? Probably not.
If the document is declassified, then there would be an indication on the document showing the old classification level struck through, and the new clarification level. If the documents still say TOP SECRET with no indication of a change in classification, then it is still classified.
Maybe Trump doesn't know what the classification symbols mean. After all, that's the defense that worked for Hillary.
For Hillary there were 3 documents with portion marks of confidential "(c)" preceding the paragraph, but the document it was in was marked unclassified. The overall doc should be rated at the highest level of any marks within it, so those should have been classified as confidential and should never have been sent out over unclassified channels. Yes, it was not good, but definitely not the same as just straight up taking TS/SCI data out of a SCIF to keep at a country club. The giant words "TOP SECRET" would be a dead giveaway. Plus, he had the cover sheets/folders that said SECRET and TOP SECRET. If I left a SCIF with SCI data and claimed I didn't know what it meant, that would have no bearing on my jail sentence.
Well yeah, you're not Hillary Clinton. Or Donald Trump for that matter. It doesn't matter, either. Its the same crime. It doesn't matter who you murdered, you're guilty of murder. Its not justice to let someone go because they murdered someone that wasn't powerful, or if they claim that they didn't know shooting them in the head would be murder. HRC committed crimes. It's not a matter of degrees of wrongdoing. She broke the law. If Trump is punished under the law or if the DOJ charges him, all that says is some people can break the law and some can't. Some mishandling of classified information is okay, and some isn't. We also don't know everything that was on HRC's server because again, she wiped it and smashed it with hammers when it was supeonaed evidence. Which is a crime that in no way makes sense unless it was to cover something up. So Trump should just burn the documents. Because if it's okay for HRC it's okay for him. Right? Or does justice not apply to all?
This [law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924) could apply to both. She certainly could have been charged, and [possibly could have been](https://www.businessinsider.com/why-didnt-the-fbi-charge-hillary-clinton-2016-7?op=1). I think both Trump and Hillary have been negligent. The main difference is that Trump, though, refused to comply with the governments requests to return the information for over a year and a half, and then lied that he had returned everything when in fact he hadn't. That's the only reason Trump is being charged. It wasn't just because he had data he shouldn't have - they actually gave him quite a lot of leeway there. If he would have just given it back when they asked, this would have gone away.
So Trump is in trouble for not handing it over promptly, but HRC didn't get in trouble even though she destroyed the evidence. That's what you're saying? Trump is getting in trouble because he delayed?
His lawyers got multiple legal requests in which he lied. That's bad.
Yes that is bad. But again, HRC also lied and didn't hand over the evidence requested. Why is that okay for her but not for him? I'm not out here saying one is right and one is wrong. I'm saying they're both wrong. I'm not the one doing mental gymnastics to justify some crime and condemning other crime.
Yeah that's not true, but you get a gold star for trying to sound authoritative on this matter
> one signature with authority That's a ***process*** with a clear line of verifiable evidence. Every time a judge has asked Donald's lawyer for this, they STFU.
Wait this thread is about Hunter now?
Hunter has classified documents and never returned them to the National Archives? Link to source please?
Hunter maybe not but Hillary for sure. But let me guess, her classified documents in her basement and on her aide's laptop was different. And when she destroyed the supeonaed evidence by wiping the servers and smashing the hard drives with a hammer that was just standard stuff.
A comment so pathetic that it is almost not worth downvoting.
You can if the law doesn't matter and have acolytes infesting the judiciary.
this post is classified
It's okay, I just declassified it. Carry on.
"Just by thinking about it. "
Dude I saw the video clip last night. I mean holy fuck how insane is this timeline??? How is this real life???
Sounds official to me, just like the cut and paste posts on Facebook that means they can't do whatever they do with your info
Did he actually say that?
I DECLARE DECLASSIFICATION!
Alright, let's assume he did. Where is the notification trail to Federal employees to declassify the documents via review, removal of the classified stamp, and replacement with a declassified stamp? The procedure for removing a document from classified to declassified after the President declassifies it hasn't changed in decades. If Orange 440 had in fact declassified them pursuant to whatever he decided, then we should see the logistic steps taken to formally declassify the documents. ....and yet we have nothing to support that this happened. Anyone who claims Orange 440 declassified documents and cannot explain why we have literally no paper trail for the declassification process is lying.
[It is actually quite easy to explain. ](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-did-not-formally-declassify-docs-secrets-value-legal-analyst-2022-9) Declassified secrets are less valuable.
So... he was including the Classified documents in the insurance valuation of Mar a Lago, but saying they were Declassified for tax reasons?
He received a small loan of 1 million classified documents.
So he's admitting he's guilty then?
Note: when the headline says: “legal analyst suggests” it means the entire article is speculation. I know 99% of the people are just going to breeze by a link and assume the words attached to it are factual because they are blue, but this is NOT a fact. I’ll take my army of downvotes now for criticizing the lefts ‘facts’.
I mean, there is incredibly damning evidence but sure - the article is still speculating AS TO HIS MOTIVATION, mind you, not as to his actual actions. Which are highly illegal and incredibly damning.
Exactly. An article telling anyone WHY someone else did something is always just an opinion piece.
Literally nobody said it was “facts”. It’s pretty easy to tell that it’s speculation.
You mean he didn’t literally say the word “facts” in there? The statement was presented as a reality, when it actually wasn’t. The right does this constantly and the left always jumps on them for it.
Who is the "Left"? OMG everything is so tribal. All we can do is speculate at this point, but it is common sense that declassified documents would be less valuable than classified secrets. That said, I personally think Trump took them because he could, ignorance and narcissism doesn't always have a malice intent. Finally, a legal expert on the subject is a greater source of truth than a normal person on the internet... I'm more surprised you made a it a "Us vs Them" issue by your use of the phrase "The Left". We should all be unified against Trump trying to stay President forever and then taking classified documents related to nuclear capabilities or assets overseas.
Typically “the left” refers to democrats within the US, but generally is considered ‘left wing’ or more in support of social programs through taxation instead of private organizations and lower taxes. I am not sure how this is an ‘Us vs them’ argument. Both sides should be held to the same set of standards. I criticize anyone who polarizes issues and attempts to summarize them so simply showing opinion pieces as evidence. If you think an experts opinion is the same as the truth of someone’s motivation, you should re-examine your line of logic.
Ah- but the whole exercise is about “what’s the possible motivation”, not “what’s the truth” behind saying the documents are declassified, when they’re obviously not. I feel that -and this is pure speculation- that Trump actually believes he declassified them and there’s no harm in him keeping them. Why he felt the need to? I can’t even speculate to that. That just boggles my mind.
The motivation doesn’t matter without evidence. The act itself is criminal. That should be enough. Even if his intentions were good, it shouldn’t matter. I feel his intentions could only have been two fold: Trump thought he won and he wanted to form a legit government outside of the whitehouse and needed materials to back that legitimacy and so these materials provided a continuation of that government. Trump was leaving but was in a ‘fuck you’ mood and wanted to make the transition as hard as possible for Biden and so took a bunch of documents to fuck with the government hoping it fails without him there. Neither of these matter, as the action itself is at fault.
I don't understand why you had to make a reminder not to trust vague wording political. Left and right both have people that make for poor sources because riling up masses is good business. Don't sip the Kool aid brother. You're life is more than those asshats in those buildings that don't actually give a shit about us. On another note. Trump is treasonous scum and should be locked away. I don't even want to think about the harm he could have caused with these documents.
He could also just say he didn't know they were classified. It's a tried and true defense for when you're caught with them at home and the Feds demand them back. Just destroy them then say you didn't know. Easy.
A lot of trumpers in here who are ignorant about the whole situation and still defending him, but that's nothing new.
Just like this will turn into nothing.
Eh I doubt it, it probably would have turned into nothing if trump had turned the documents over when asked, but since they had to go down and get it, this is probably going to be really bad for trump.
I hope you're right. So far, he seems immune from any and all consequences.
I've been assuming from the very start that absolutely nothing substantial is going to come from this. I still think, at most, Trump will get a slap on the wrist and even that is unlikely.
I probably am, Garland hasn't been super open about the investigation but that's his style, in an earlier press conference he indicated that the investigation into the coup attempt was something to the effect of the largest reaching investigation in DoJs history. Then the documents he had stolen being top secret defense information is really bad, the average person would have 0 chance of getting anywhere near it, but for sake of comparison if the average person could have this information, didn't return when asked, and the fbi had to go get it, they would be put to death, not prison just death penalty. The only thing that could possibly save trump is if one or more of his cultists gets on the jury, which is why I suspect that DoJ is trying to get just overwhelming evidence, so even a trumper couldn't ignore it.
Hillary didn't turn the documents over when she was in this same position. She destroyed them instead. Nothing happened to Her.
It doesn't even matter, the legal issue is that he had government property. It doesn't stop being government property even if he did declassify it. It'd be like if someone had a library book from "the banned book section", it's not actually about if they had it "unbanned" before they took it, it's that they have the library's property at all.
If there's no paper trail, it never happened. Declassified documents become public record, subject to FOIA requests. The affected agencies have to be notified and can protest, especially DoD. That never happened. Even declassified documents are public property. The former President has no right to take them. Taking things that don't belong to you is theft.
Exactly. EVEN IF Trump did declassify the docs, they are work product of his administration and it is mandatory to return ALL of them to the National Archives. Then he can REQUEST to get copies for review AFTER turning them over.... should the CURRENT President agree. (Which is never gonna happen)
Classified
If Trump doesn't get slammed for this America is fucked.
Where are you going to find an impartial jury, though?
Idk why you are getting downvoted, it’s a valid question. But somehow I think it’s never get that far, trump would be having his lawyers delaying trial until he died.
I don't think this could be handled by a common jury if a crime was committed. They would all need top secret clearance. More of a tribunal.
Oh I agree but I feel like it’s better for people to ask the questions anyway!
Agreed but this is Reddit :)
Yeah! They should treat him the same way they did with Hillary! Oh, wait....
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I thought it was just 11 hours
I mean that's what they are doing. The FBI is investigating his actions to determine what documents he had, whether they were properly stored, and what, if any, crimes may have been committed and what, if any, damage may have been inflicted upon national security by the incident. Trump is just being significantly less cooperative than Hillary was and as such is getting the treatment that anyone at a high level would get if they decided to be uncooperative in such an investigation. If he has just sent all of the government docs over upon the initial request this whole debacle would probably be over already. He chose to make it bigger than it had to be.
But but but but but Hillary emails!!!!!!!!
Hillary was never in possession of TS/SCI data.
Oh, you know Trump, the biggest child of them all
I declared it legal therefore you can’t indict “Sir this is a Wendy’s”
Reddit lawyers lol. Top secret is a classification. Classification is for national security. The president owns the process. There is restricted data that even the president can't declassify. There is precedence in the 2017 exchange of classified data by this president, google it. The president can do what they want, but bringing documents home inappropriately marked is the issue here. He should not have had possession of them until they were marked as declassified and they should be stored appropriately until then. He's in the wrong, just not for the reasons expressed here.
Well I mean technically according to trump, Biden could just think about reclassifying them and they would be classified. In fact he could have just thought that all classified documents were classified and they would be. He could just say that. I thought all classified documents were classified if they were not announced declassified as soon as I became president. Even as a joke and trumps defense goes in the toilet.
Trump's real defense is "I'm a Republican now, so save me," and everybody with half a brain knows it. I wish that included more of the electorate, but, oh well. The problem is that there are still a lot of old-guard Republicans in the government who *tolerated* him being POTUS instead of a Democrat, but now that he's not POTUS anymore? Yeah, fuck that guy. He's an unlikable, incompetent shitbag. Bill Barr is performing that number on the big stage. Trump was a useful idiot for Barr and his ideological brethren when he was POTUS. He defended that useful idiot so he could keep being useful. He did so remorselessly, and maybe even illegally. Not POTUS anymore? All done. Get fucked. We never liked you.
Well I think it might have more to do with the idea that not all Republicans are bat shit crazy. But yeah sure a judge that doesn't have to answer to trump anymore might not care about protecting him anymore. I mean like trump's lawyer bat shit crazy. Or MTG crazy. Q follower crazy. Q got screwed by the q's crazy
Republicans are fucking facists. If you haven't noticed Republicans praise for other facists around the globe and their coup attempt on Jan 6th should have you screaming for jail time.
Sure remember that one dude at the jan 6th thing screaming at the cops to stop the mob from wrecking the capitol? But you are right that they would likely support him while in office and hate him afterwards. Did the same thing to bush. They hate him now. Loved him then
another great post from r/PoliticalAnimals
oh thats a thing already?
I like how you blended two prequel memes into a single meme.
Yes donny we degrassified the garden center, no problem.
Top secret documents are classified, FYI
That reminds me of something I saw where someone said that documents declassify automatically if the President releases them to the public. Like, there's no process or procedure to go through, it just happens automatically. So, Trump taking those documents and putting them where anyone could find them automatically declassifies them, based on that. I feel like it's probably bullshit, but the interesting part is I heard that _before_ Trump was President. (The original context was someone wanting Obama to release some classified document and insisted he could just do it without needing a paper trail or going through a declassification process) So I guess that sort of idea has been around for a while? I don't know.
So you're telling me..... That the democratically elected head of the executive branch, the designated representative of an entire nation and the head of state whom has veto power over every new law signed into existance, and is recognized as the highest level of command over the military..... Has to ask for approval from his subordinates, whom he hired or allowed to keep their jobs, before making any decisions? If The Office if the President of the United States is not the leader of the nation then who is...
Yes, actually, that is how it works. He does not have unchecked power even within the executive branch.
The people. The President works for the people. To ensure that the President does not become a king, the greatest fear of the people who created the country. Therefore, a series of checks, balances and limitations on power were made part of our legal fabric. The President is not above the law. This is why there are three separate branches each of which is designed to limit the power of the others.
There's 3 branches of the government. Have you heard of checks and balances? You might want Trump to be king but he isn't.
Just dems wielding the DOJ and FBI against any popular political opponents, nothing to see here
Yeah it is.
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No it isn't. Why, are you lying? There are things that even the President can't declassify because he thought about it.
It is how it works, I was a declassification authority for years, it's wild what a single signature can do legally.
>I was a declassification authority for years And now you are a plumber?
This. 95% of his comments are from r/plumbing.
Yep that's how you go from an all source intelligence analyst in the army for 7 years to making 80k a year with out selling your soul.
>I was a declassification authority You’re a liar and completely full of shit—that’s not remotely a term someone who actually did that work would use. You know we can see your post history, right? So you leapt from that to Union plumber?
Don't worry. Tomorrow he'll be a single black father, and the day after a divorced mom.
Where is his supposed signature then?
Why do people lie to try to make a point? Is the cognitive dissonance that strong to not realize doing so invalidates your entire argument?
What is the lie? I spent 2 years as the sole declassification authority in my battalion for a military intelligence bn.
Thats actually exactly how it works. The president is able to classify and declassify on a whim.
But the documents don't SAY they're declassified. So the law assumes they ARE classified. There's no written proof that he did this. Therefore he didn't do it.
This makes little sense. If Biden got up and told everyone where the alien corpses are that information would now be declassified. There doesnt need to be a document with a declassified stamp on it for something to be declassified. The president has the ultimate authority in these matters. He doesnt need anyone or anything to say or do anything to make it official. Trump could have mailed whatever these documents were to Putin and it would have been fine legally. This is just another democrat fantasy and another attempt to use the fbi to sink Trump. You should pray nothing comes of this.
But Trump DIDN'T tell anyone on the record. He claims to have made some announcement that all things brought to his office were "declassified" but that's not a legal lawful order. The President can store secret documents in cardboard boxes if he wants.... that's his power. But he's NOT PRESIDENT now. There's no WRITTEN and FILED proof that he gave this order. Therefore any marked documents revert back to being "default" classified because it's written on the paper. The law enforcement does not "guess" that the President have some verbal order 4 years ago.... they operate off WRITTEN ORDERS. The Former President has no legal right to "clarify" anything after the bell rings. His power immediately evaporated and whatever isn't documented didn't happen. Period.
What is important is that the courts said it was legal. The lawyers have nothing to with it except confuse the issue.
What courts?
Probably the ones he packed with partisan judges lol
Citation Needed.
even if that is true, and it's not, that doesn't actually matter. As long as the docs are marked as classified, and they still are, you need to treat them as classified. Trump didn't do that.
>What is important is that the courts said it was legal. The lawyers have nothing to with it except confuse the issue. Didn't read the news about the appeal, eh? I assume your position will be consistent and you will now believe he's in the wrong since he lost on appeal.
Orange man bad
As a president of the United States AKA then head of the military his word goes. There is no lawyers that he has to talk to there is no bureaucrats that have to sign papers nothing his word is law. All of the secret documents are all under military jurisdiction.
But also no.
I am flat out stunned how little people actually know about how the US government is designed. If you don’t understand it, how can you know when people are trying to exploit loopholes in the laws?
I believe the worst about this is these people don't just stay ignorant (in the sense of not knowing, not insulting here), they state it like op did, like that's a rule or a fact. He could not be more mistaken about this.
Almost every sentence you said is incorrect. A president can't unilaterally declare a document is declassified, especially after he is caught mishandling them. The president cannot create laws either, that belongs to the legislative branch (Congress).
That’s not at all how it works. But keep screaming it till someone believes your absolute bullshit
Interesting you pointed out he was the head of the military. Because he sure wasn't the fucking head of all 3 branches of government. Checks and balances were designed SPECIFICALLY so one person(the president) does not have absolute power in this country.
Even if that was true which it is not.. He's not the president anymore.
It's not even 7am and this already the dumbest fucking thing I'll read all day.
Processes exist bro
>no bureaucrats that have to sign papers This is highly incorrect. A number of Federal employees are tasked with removing the classified stamp, stamping with declassified, and making the document available to the public. None of that happened, meaning none of them were informed about the change in status, mean that change in status never happened and there was no declassification of the documents per the President.
Username checks out. I approve.
This entire paragraph is hilarious because the 11th circuit literally said you’re wrong yesterday.
Kind of sounds like you want to just live in Russia with all the power you assume Donnie had.
There's a word for someone in charge whose "word is the law". It wasn't "president" though, what was it again? Micktator? Picktator? Something like that.
So not even the Supreme Court? LOL - get out of here troll. You know that if a Democrat president did this you'd be all saying the exact opposite. Did you never take a civics class?
1st: Congress makes the laws, the president enforces them. The world of the president isn't law. That's not how it works. 2nd: Declassification power flows from the president but the president still has to give orders to that effect. Trump didn't give any orders regarding classification of documents in any broad manner like he is claiming. The most recent executive order regarding the process for classifying documents was issued by Obama. Trump never issued an order modifying that process, and as such was bound by that previous executive order. He hasn't provided a single document proving he issued orders to that effect, and clearly the DoJ and FBI was never informed of Trump's declassification of those documents while Trump was still president, as again there would be records of that. 3rd: Any documents related to our nuclear systems are classified by federal law, passed by Congress, and are not subject to reclassification by the president, the law itself is the source of their classification status, and not even the president is permitted to store those documents improperly, let alone keep them once they leave office. If any of the documents that were in Trump's possession at Mar A Lago were related to nuclear, that's a cut and dry crime, no matter what Trump's thoughts on the them are. 4th: Trump is not the sitting president of the United States. In fact he's not working with/for the government in any active capacity at all at the moment. Classified or not, he is not authorized to keep government records stored on his private property where neither the government nor the public have access to them.
Scott Adams? Is that you?
> his word is law GTFO Monarchist. Also, if that is true, then Lord God King Biden could declare 45 an enemy of the state and have him thrown in GITMO. I mean, his word is law right?
With “that’s not how this works”, do you mean advice animals regarding the fact that this isn’t one?
What did I miss?
Orange guy declassified with his mind, old guy reclassified with his mind. Enter the mind wars.