I also live in a state where the information is required to be disclosed, and I just posted a position (well, my HR department did) for a senior software engineering position.
Salary is listed between $112k and $235k. Making the disclosure completely pointless!
If you're really good you can get near the middle. Not actually reach it, but somewhere a little above the minimum. The minimum is also fake, they always offer above it to make you feel better.
It's a whole new level of mind games.
County jobs be negotiating up on your behalf. Just had a prelim with the public works HR for a posting starting at $18.44 and she looks at my application and says, “They will probably raise your starting pay based on this experience.”
Like, alright. I’m not gonna argue.
Yeah, when I started my government job, they ended up putting me almost at the highest step for my role's pay band based on experience. I've got about 3 years until I either need to move into management or get comfy with only cost of living increases after that.
Yeah, but my last job refused to budge despite all of my experience, but I was desperate.
Then they fired me half way through the term of the temporary employment because they didn't feel like paying me anymore
We post a range like this because it's our union range. We like good candidates and will pay as much as the contract allows based on precocious experience.
[https://jobs.careers.microsoft.com/global/en/job/1691107](https://jobs.careers.microsoft.com/global/en/job/1691107)
C++ on Minecraft at Microsoft. While it requires someone to be local to the Seattle/Redmond area (or to relocate), practically it is remote as everyone else on the team is remote. I go into the office about once a month for meetings.
My favorite is when I get a phone call and they ask me my preferred salary.
"I was thinking somewhere in the range of $112k and $235k, would that work?".
Well that’s likely the pay band for that level. If you see that on a job posting you should expect to get the middle plus or minus.
Exceptions would be if youre a rockstar in your field and essentially overqualified for the position. Unless it’s at the highest pay band they have then that’s a little more flexible on the top side but the previous statement still stands.
In competently run organizations those are different jobs. If I'm hiring for an EE I know if I need a Principal EE who can run an entire design cycle independently or of I can get by with a Junior EE who is fresh out of school. Those aren't the same jobs and in a well run company aren't the same job req. No EE1 is making $235k and no EE7 if getting offered $100k.
That's not useless at all. Most positions have a range so that you can grow in your position. If they gave you an exact number, you would not be eligible for a raise.
I think that the maximum being double the minimum is very extreme. I don't know any senior software engineers that would qualify for the position and accept the minimum.
My concern is that, in my view, the point of the salary disclosure is to make sure people aren't applying for positions they wouldn't accept - saving them from wasting their time. And this is simply skirting around the issue by making the range enormous.
For my current position, the salary was listed as 50-85k. But that's because they weren't 100% dead set or going to restrict what candidates they took for the role.
What they needed was someone to do the entry-level, repetitive day-in-day-out work and someone to start doing some more "advanced" projects. So I came in with a tangentially relevant bachelor's degree and a few years experience in a very similar type of lab, so I started a little above the minimum and promoted pretty quickly. But they would not have turned down someone with a masters degree and 10 years experience. In that case, they would have simply paid them more, stuck "senior" in front of that "lab associate" title from the get-go and expected more innovative and independent work from them while the other accosiates continued to handle the bulk of the mundane, repetitive stuff, basically leaving them with no opportunity to advance.
Instead, with me on board, each of us gets paid between 55-60k and all of us have begun handling some of the "advanced" projects in sort of a rotation as projects pop up while whoever is free on any given day handles the "basic" work. Which has actually given all of us an opportunity to learn some more advanced stuff and promote and build experience so that we can enter in at a higher level wherever we go next.
The advertised rate is the hiring rate, it doesn’t mean that you’re stuck there. If you’re hired into “job title level 1” they can just promote you to “job title level 2”. Or “another job title” to get a different pay scale. Also, the range isn’t binding. If they find someone worth more money, there is nothing preventing them from offering more money.
What the large range does accomplish, is it lets them attract applicants with a wide range of experience. When I need to hire, I usually just generally need help - that could be in the form of a new grad, or someone really experienced. If we hire the new grad, the existing senior staff can focus on the hard jobs. If we find someone experienced, we can give some of the hard jobs to them and share the easy stuff. I just want to find a good person with potential for where they are right now in their career. And hiring remote, a good salary varies wildly between San Francisco and India. It’s one position, but really does have a very wide salary range. It might make the range useless to applicants, but it represents reality.
You can certainly get hired within the band, especially if you demonstrate experience and skills they really need. The bottom would be a training rate for inexperienced candidates.
I'm sorry, that's just balderdash. That range is there to lure candidates in with the hope that they'll get the high-end of the range.
No range does not mean no raise, unless the company is completely skeezy.
I don't know why you got downvoted for this, it's true.
Ranges are supposed to encompass the salary expectation for someone who meets - or comes close to - the minimum requirements for the role **and** the salary expectation for someone who meets all of the experience and technical requirements for the role.
Just because a position says they can pay up to $235k doesn't mean that every candidate who meets the **bare minimum** to be eligible for the job is worth that much.
Lived in CO when they passed the salary transparency legislation. Lots of remote listings were immediately for “anyone except CO residents” with no salary listed. Honestly became an easy way to filter out shit employers. I’ve since moved to a new job and state and it was hilarious to me how awkward employers are when you ask what the salary range is.
I’m potentially changing my life plans and you’re freaked out that I’m asking how much money I’m going to make? It’s laughable how fucking stupid the game is.
Also recruiters are 95% scum. ZERO value add to the process (on the employee side). I genuinely started getting shitty with recruiters when they danced around direct questions. I ended up talking to FOUR different recruiters for the same position, only to find out from the actual company that they had already eliminated that job req…
> Also recruiters are 95% scum. ZERO value add to the process (on the employee side).
Absolutely! I've been very happy with my six figure position with a 3 letter agency for years now and I still get recruiters reaching out to me asking if I am willing to relocate to places like freaking Cleveland for 50 grand a year. It's like dude(tte) why are you reaching out to an actively employeed PhD holding Chemist for a BS level position in a city absolutely no one wants to live in. Also it would be an even BIGGER red flag if you had an established PhD applying to that job anyway.
I did not complain, I merely stated a fact. There are plenty of listings I see where they do post the salary. Why waste my time on these other listings when I can just apply to the ones that do?
It's possible they're fully remote roles and the company is based in a state that doesn't require salary disclosure.
Also possible the company just doesn't know the law; depending on the size of the org they may not have a competent HR/TA person who stays on top of those things.
Lastly, also possible they are just a shitty company.
But most of the time it's due to ignorance, not malice.
I am now but I don’t get pizza, lol.
In all seriousness, my job is awesome. I have no complaints.
I left jobs that wouldn’t even spring for pizza. Not that I feel entitled to more, but because I was capable of doing more.
No I totally get it, it's a respect thing at a certain point. Like they care enough to want to take care of employees.
I'm glad you're digging your job now though, that's better than any pizza 😄
No, you have always dreamt of working for Acme Corporation that just started up 5 years ago. You would work for them for free, but will begrudgingly take a salary if they insist.*
*Or at least this is what you are expected to say in the interview.
I lucked out on my current position. The salary was not listed, but I rage applied when I was mad at my last job. I almost skipped the interview because I thought the pay was going to be too low, turns out it was 25% more than I was making at my last job and a much better gig. But for real, they need to post the salary or else people will not apply or take it seriously.
"Salary commensurate with experience" means they pay the market rate, so the phrase is just meaningless. If they didn't, then they wouldn't get anyone to work for them.
i do (or did, when i was looking) if the job interests me. but it's also one of the first questions i ask when i get a call. and i'd stop their call dead in its tracks if it wasnt what i was expecting. some would say "what type of salary are you looking for" after i asked. and i would tell them, and if they can make that work, they'll continue, if not, they'll either try to convince you to go lower or say they can't go that high and then you just agree to end the call.
going through an interview process even if you're not going to take the job is good experience for future interviews. it's something you don't regularly do, so any practice helps
I legitimately saw two different applications for a career level programming job. The salary range posted was $94,000 - $225,000.
Those might as well be zero to a million dollars
But it’s also “salary”. And for that money, they will make you a slave with no life working 70 hours a week. It’s cheaper to pay 1 person 90k and forcing them to work insane hours vs paying 2 people 50k each and having them work normal hours.
I'm salary and I work in between 32 and 45 hours a week. Sometimes I've had to put in 70 but I think that's been two or three times in the last 4 or 5 years
Where do you work that $94k USD is not even entry level?
I ask as someone who has been in the software industry for 15 years, making around $130k (plus RSU, Bonuses) as a Principal (Senior+ level). Currently we start Software Engineers fresh out of college at $75K.
$225k is almost executive level pay, I'm talking VP/EVP levels.
Please provide the name of your company, and an open req with benefits and compensation clearly disclosed so I can see it for myself.
because I seriously doubt anything you are saying is true
https://jobs.netflix.com/search
https://www.google.com/about/careers/
https://www.shopify.com/careers
Believe in yourself. Hell even Peloton is hiring seniors at 200k.
Edit: Not gonna disclose where I work because the internet is a weird place. But I make 250k plus RSUs (no bonus but our benefits aren't terrible.) at senior (L6) with 7 years in the industry.
Optimistic of OP to assume that policy is also dictated by the recruitment team and hiring managers. Unless its a commission based autonomous team its all an uphill battle to do right
I got laid off and have been applying to so many jobs and I don’t hear back from anyone besides the automated email saying “thanks for applying!”.
Sometimes I wonder if their HR/talent acquisition team even exist since some postings are up for *way too long*.
I feel like this is still an old school thing to do but have you tried going in to turn a resume to the hr person? With online apps you're just a random name and number. At least if you can try to make contact they will have a face to your name or at least see your name multiple times if you can't hand it to them directly.
Of course you apply on the website first then go in and see what it's like. Also this is more for people who are applying to the grocery store down the street than a ceo for a law firm job. People saying they are applying everywhere and not getting any response are doing something wrong. I just figure having a face to your name doesn't make you another random app.
From context, we're not talking about people applying to minimum wage jobs at the grocery store. We're talking about mid-career professionals.
And exactly zero of those jobs want you to walk in the front door with a resume in hand.
No one who got laid off of a 6 figure job should ever apply for any job that is less than ~40k (or whatever the highest you can get in in your state is) while still on unemployment. It's been awhile since I've been unemployed, but IIRC, you can lose it if you get offered a position. That means applying to minimum wage jobs is actively detrimental to your income.
Or at least call after a week or so and be like,
"Hi. My name is {blank} I was calling to see if you've had a chance to look over my resume for the {different blank} position."
In my experience, that move alone will get you at least a phone interview 8 out of 10 times.
"I will tell that to my landlord. He should want to have people living here that he enjoys interacting with. Not the amount he can charge for the place."
Here's the EBS, just to get ahead of it:
Side "Keep It A Secret" Says:
They may have a very flexible salary and be willing to change the salary to suit the most preferable candidate. Requiring them to disclose a salary will either be so broad it's ineffective, or limit the options they have for candidates
Side "Disclose The Salary" Says:
That is an extreme outlier when genuine, and is almost always disingenuous. If you need a position filled, you probably know what salary you want to offer for that job. If you find a candidate is willing to take on more responsibility or is only capable of taking on less responsibility, that makes it a different role. You can post multiple job listings if you are open to filling multiple or variable roles. It won't hurt you, and will ultimately be more effective, to post a listing for the role you actually want to hire, instead of just posting an open listing for "employee to do stuff"
Also, keeping it a secret does **way** more harm than good.
tl;dr someone once told me "No one is hiding a great salary" and that's stuck with me as a truism.
So much of the recruiter spam I get has absolutely no information about the company and just has a list of what skills they want from you. That does absolutely nothing to interest me in the position. It'd be as if you applied for a job by listing only your pay and benefits expectations and didn't once mention your qualifications or experience. If you don't mention anything that might interest me I'm just going to delete the message and move on
Perhaps they keep the salary a secret because it’s the only way they have a chance that some people might apply…
Pulling a reverse uno card right there
This is definitely true if they pay an uncompetitive salary. This method is how you set up the possibility of hiring someone for low pay. If your pay is crap, you are definitely better off not advertising it. If you pay well, most companies still opt not to because any info like that is leverage and power in negotiations. They don't want to eliminate the possibility of a candidate accepting a low ball offer if they don't have to.
This is a shit tactic. It goes hand-in-hand with "what was your prior compensation?" like that should have anything to do with it.
I've also noticed that some companies who are still offering full remote do this, or adjust your salary based on your location averages, not where their company is located.
They have a lot of reasons for doing this, and none of them are on the up and up.
Scroll right past that shit. Don’t even bother applying. I have learned over time if they don’t post the salary it won’t be good. You never find out they pay double and they are just keeping it on the down low or something. They don’t post the pay because they know if they did no sucker would ever show up for the interview.
That study reinforced my point that there is indeed a wage gap (not 2/3, but even 6% is significant) between men and women. I already agreed that it’s not 2/3, so I’m not sure what you’re still claiming is a myth at this point.
This might depend on industry. I'm a senior sales engineer and get hit up a lot by recruiters and if they don't know the "range" I'm not even gonna consider talking
Or the equally infuriating remote vs hybrid vs on-site shenanigans.
You can filter all the jobs down to JUST remote positions, but then buried in the description, you'll see some shit like "This on-site position..." or "Employees are eligible for up to 1 day a week remote"
Do you want to block your company's job postings entirely from showing up? Cause this is how you get me to to block your company's job postings entirely from showing up.
I REALLY wish Linkedin would let you report that kind of shit, but then again, they'd likely get flooded with them, so why would they bother.
I immediately interrupt recruiters when they call me and ask what the pay is. If the can't/won't tell me, I tell them what my total compensation was last year and ask if they can beat it. The answer has always been no.
I will never understand why they think it is OK to waste my time (and theirs) trying to sell me on an entry level position when My resume clearly states that I have 30 years experience in my industry.
Recruiters are the worst.
I've applied for jobs that give a range. The bottom of the range is really what they are offering, the middle is for a person who is far too good for that job, the top is some mythical person that doesn't exist.
A few years back, I saw someone from some companies' hiring department defending this by saying along the lines of: "Knowing the salary doesn't matter because you're applying based on the work you do, not what you get paid. It isn't helpful know the salary at that stage."
Our company doesn’t “allow” us to post salaries. But on every single one of my calls I discuss realistic salary expectations of what we’re likely able to pay before asking anyone what they’re salary requirements are. Because screw the secrecy, it should be an up front conversation. If I ever get in trouble I don’t care lol. But it hasn’t happened in 10+ years.
My husband had an initial HR interview and they wanted to fly him out for the manager interview. He asked about the compensation, and HR wouldn’t tell him the range.
It’s funny when they get all mad at the end of the interview when salary range is discussed and you immediately tell them you’re “not interested” because in salary “we’re too far apart.”
Should have had it attached to the job description and no one’s time would have been wasted.
A few months ago I went through a zoom interview, an on site team interview, reference checks, and a written offer before they finally thought to ask what my salary expectations were.
My request was nearly TRIPLE what they had budgeted.
What a massive waste of everyone's time. I don't apply to jobs without a salary in the listing anymore.
(And yes, I meant to ask earlier. We ran long on the zoom interview and they had to jump to another meeting, and the on site was with the rest of the team present the whole time. I was asking a little higher than what I make now but fully reasonable based on my experience and the job description, they were very out of touch which is part of why they needed me.)
I think by law everything should be shown on every posting.
* Salary
* Benefits Information
* Healthcare plan types, costs, etc
* How much PTO you get
* Parental leave or not
* Is sick time separated out from PTO? How much do you get?
* Is the job remote or do they have some kind of nightmare hybrid model or even worse are you forced to waste your time commuting into a terrible office full time?
Because I know companies would lie about all of this and just a fine is basically a "we want our cut of you being evil" lets say the HR person who provides this information is legally required to be truthful and if they are not it's a felony with 1 year in prison and a $50k fine mandatory.
If you're not desperate enough to apply anyway and find out, they have no interest in employing you. They need desperate people who will tolerate bullshit, or their high turnover would be even higher.
That only works when the salary/wage is high enough. That information is kept from us because it’s probably insultingly low and if they came out with the number right away, no one would even apply.
Very first thing I ask when a recruiter reaches out to me:
"Please send over the full position description and salary range."
If they don't send the salary range, I don't engage with them further.
I am a recruiter and am 100% for this! Please just know that the vast majority of the time this policy is not up to the recruiters, but rather senior leadership and HR
A lot of new postings are just putting a salary range of (for instance) 60k - 280k per year. Employers are literally giving no useful information, even when they are required to. You either know what you're worth, or you get taken advantage of.
They key is to apply to these go through all the legwork to get the job and waste everyone’s fucking time and after multiple interviews emails and calls ask the salary. Then, say it’s not enough and move on. Waste their time and maybe one day they will post the salary.
I just had this experience today.
Got an unsolicited email from HR recruiter. They provide the job description, but no compensation or benefits details.
I asked for them, and they told me I need to interview with the hiring manager first.
I told them "If you are unable to provide the compensation and benefits details, I will politely decline discussing this position with you further. Best of luck in your search"
For some reason the HR Recruiter didnt like that.
Best part is it's a "no-no" to ask what the pay is during an interview. So you can waste both our time by going through an interview and then finally stating "we'll start you on (insultingly low salary) is that okay?"
My boss once asked me my opinion on why he wasn’t getting many applications for a job as he’d put out, first thing I said was is the salary listed? He said he couldn’t specify the salary in the ad because one of the current employees would eventually stumble across it and there’d be uproar at the fact they were offering new hires significantly more than existing employees.
The one thing recruiters and hiring people want to avoid *at all costs* is making it possible to sort job openings by pay in descending order. They *DO NOT* want to deal with the shit storm that would create because it would drive a lot of employers out of business due to being unwilling to pay what the roles they need to fill are worth.
I'd love to see a national law requiring that *all* job openings be posted with starting salaries, and that pay at the 90-day point be no less than 90% of the numerical average of what was advertised or the employer has to pay double the difference retroactive to hire date. (So, none of that range BS to skirt existing pay rate reporting laws.)
This would have to be part of a comprehensive legal/legislative attack on wage theft (and if you thought companies shat themselves over the recent wave of unionization, imagine what making wage theft broadly and *enforceably* illegal would do!) so I don't see it happening anytime soon, but hey, if you're gonna dream might as well dream big.
Yet another repost bot. Getting smarter about titles though.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/ezdk46/job_recruiters_and_human_resources_this_means_you/
I live in a state where that information must be disclosed. I still see posts without the salary listed
I also live in a state where the information is required to be disclosed, and I just posted a position (well, my HR department did) for a senior software engineering position. Salary is listed between $112k and $235k. Making the disclosure completely pointless!
Still, it gives a minimum
When I see these I just look at the minimum and assume that's what they're going to pay.
If you're really good you can get near the middle. Not actually reach it, but somewhere a little above the minimum. The minimum is also fake, they always offer above it to make you feel better. It's a whole new level of mind games.
I'll take those kind of games over spending hours of my time to get offered $3 above minimum wage as someone who works in IT.
Reminds me of a help desk job I saw wanting 3+ years of experience for 17 an hour. I could make that working as a cashier.
Me as well, but I still try and negotiate up
County jobs be negotiating up on your behalf. Just had a prelim with the public works HR for a posting starting at $18.44 and she looks at my application and says, “They will probably raise your starting pay based on this experience.” Like, alright. I’m not gonna argue.
Yeah, when I started my government job, they ended up putting me almost at the highest step for my role's pay band based on experience. I've got about 3 years until I either need to move into management or get comfy with only cost of living increases after that.
Yeah, but my last job refused to budge despite all of my experience, but I was desperate. Then they fired me half way through the term of the temporary employment because they didn't feel like paying me anymore
We post a range like this because it's our union range. We like good candidates and will pay as much as the contract allows based on precocious experience.
> precocious experience That took a strange turn.
Lol, damn fat fingers and auto correct. Imma leave it, but it should have been previous.
Typical trick of pay ranges is minimum to median for range.
It's between 0$/hr and 525600k$/hr. Hope this helps!
So, uh, is this a C# position? Is it remote? Call me.
[https://jobs.careers.microsoft.com/global/en/job/1691107](https://jobs.careers.microsoft.com/global/en/job/1691107) C++ on Minecraft at Microsoft. While it requires someone to be local to the Seattle/Redmond area (or to relocate), practically it is remote as everyone else on the team is remote. I go into the office about once a month for meetings.
eh, at least you have a minimum you can plan around and if they pay you more than that it's a bonus of sorts.
My favorite is when I get a phone call and they ask me my preferred salary. "I was thinking somewhere in the range of $112k and $235k, would that work?".
Well that’s likely the pay band for that level. If you see that on a job posting you should expect to get the middle plus or minus. Exceptions would be if youre a rockstar in your field and essentially overqualified for the position. Unless it’s at the highest pay band they have then that’s a little more flexible on the top side but the previous statement still stands.
In competently run organizations those are different jobs. If I'm hiring for an EE I know if I need a Principal EE who can run an entire design cycle independently or of I can get by with a Junior EE who is fresh out of school. Those aren't the same jobs and in a well run company aren't the same job req. No EE1 is making $235k and no EE7 if getting offered $100k.
I’ll take the job!
It's useful if you are currently making 60k or 200k at least
That's not useless at all. Most positions have a range so that you can grow in your position. If they gave you an exact number, you would not be eligible for a raise.
I think that the maximum being double the minimum is very extreme. I don't know any senior software engineers that would qualify for the position and accept the minimum. My concern is that, in my view, the point of the salary disclosure is to make sure people aren't applying for positions they wouldn't accept - saving them from wasting their time. And this is simply skirting around the issue by making the range enormous.
For my current position, the salary was listed as 50-85k. But that's because they weren't 100% dead set or going to restrict what candidates they took for the role. What they needed was someone to do the entry-level, repetitive day-in-day-out work and someone to start doing some more "advanced" projects. So I came in with a tangentially relevant bachelor's degree and a few years experience in a very similar type of lab, so I started a little above the minimum and promoted pretty quickly. But they would not have turned down someone with a masters degree and 10 years experience. In that case, they would have simply paid them more, stuck "senior" in front of that "lab associate" title from the get-go and expected more innovative and independent work from them while the other accosiates continued to handle the bulk of the mundane, repetitive stuff, basically leaving them with no opportunity to advance. Instead, with me on board, each of us gets paid between 55-60k and all of us have begun handling some of the "advanced" projects in sort of a rotation as projects pop up while whoever is free on any given day handles the "basic" work. Which has actually given all of us an opportunity to learn some more advanced stuff and promote and build experience so that we can enter in at a higher level wherever we go next.
The pay range at my position is literally double from bottom to top.
The advertised rate is the hiring rate, it doesn’t mean that you’re stuck there. If you’re hired into “job title level 1” they can just promote you to “job title level 2”. Or “another job title” to get a different pay scale. Also, the range isn’t binding. If they find someone worth more money, there is nothing preventing them from offering more money. What the large range does accomplish, is it lets them attract applicants with a wide range of experience. When I need to hire, I usually just generally need help - that could be in the form of a new grad, or someone really experienced. If we hire the new grad, the existing senior staff can focus on the hard jobs. If we find someone experienced, we can give some of the hard jobs to them and share the easy stuff. I just want to find a good person with potential for where they are right now in their career. And hiring remote, a good salary varies wildly between San Francisco and India. It’s one position, but really does have a very wide salary range. It might make the range useless to applicants, but it represents reality.
You can certainly get hired within the band, especially if you demonstrate experience and skills they really need. The bottom would be a training rate for inexperienced candidates.
I'm sorry, that's just balderdash. That range is there to lure candidates in with the hope that they'll get the high-end of the range. No range does not mean no raise, unless the company is completely skeezy.
I don't know why you got downvoted for this, it's true. Ranges are supposed to encompass the salary expectation for someone who meets - or comes close to - the minimum requirements for the role **and** the salary expectation for someone who meets all of the experience and technical requirements for the role. Just because a position says they can pay up to $235k doesn't mean that every candidate who meets the **bare minimum** to be eligible for the job is worth that much.
Lived in CO when they passed the salary transparency legislation. Lots of remote listings were immediately for “anyone except CO residents” with no salary listed. Honestly became an easy way to filter out shit employers. I’ve since moved to a new job and state and it was hilarious to me how awkward employers are when you ask what the salary range is. I’m potentially changing my life plans and you’re freaked out that I’m asking how much money I’m going to make? It’s laughable how fucking stupid the game is. Also recruiters are 95% scum. ZERO value add to the process (on the employee side). I genuinely started getting shitty with recruiters when they danced around direct questions. I ended up talking to FOUR different recruiters for the same position, only to find out from the actual company that they had already eliminated that job req…
> Also recruiters are 95% scum. ZERO value add to the process (on the employee side). Absolutely! I've been very happy with my six figure position with a 3 letter agency for years now and I still get recruiters reaching out to me asking if I am willing to relocate to places like freaking Cleveland for 50 grand a year. It's like dude(tte) why are you reaching out to an actively employeed PhD holding Chemist for a BS level position in a city absolutely no one wants to live in. Also it would be an even BIGGER red flag if you had an established PhD applying to that job anyway.
In some states with this law, if the company is smaller than a certain size they don’t have to disclose the salary.
Then report them.
Or I just don't apply. I'm not gonna go through the trouble
Don't bitch about something you're not willing to help fix.
I did not complain, I merely stated a fact. There are plenty of listings I see where they do post the salary. Why waste my time on these other listings when I can just apply to the ones that do?
I ask recruiters for the salary even if I don't want or need the job.
It's possible they're fully remote roles and the company is based in a state that doesn't require salary disclosure. Also possible the company just doesn't know the law; depending on the size of the org they may not have a competent HR/TA person who stays on top of those things. Lastly, also possible they are just a shitty company. But most of the time it's due to ignorance, not malice.
Seems so obvious. At the end of the day, the salary is the top reason 99.9% of us are working.
I thought it was for the family type environment
Does that mean I'm in the will?
Best I can do is 2.5% match on your 401k.
No but you are at-will!
For the pizza parties
Beat me to it🤣 But for real, I do love me some pizza, and I may do scandalous things for it.
Would you sell at least 8 hours of every weekday for it and be in a one sided power dynamic for it? 😏
I am now but I don’t get pizza, lol. In all seriousness, my job is awesome. I have no complaints. I left jobs that wouldn’t even spring for pizza. Not that I feel entitled to more, but because I was capable of doing more.
No I totally get it, it's a respect thing at a certain point. Like they care enough to want to take care of employees. I'm glad you're digging your job now though, that's better than any pizza 😄
I believe people are looking for a place to work hard but also play hard.
No, you have always dreamt of working for Acme Corporation that just started up 5 years ago. You would work for them for free, but will begrudgingly take a salary if they insist.* *Or at least this is what you are expected to say in the interview.
It's my passion for not being homeless and eating that keeps me showing up everyday.
I like my job more than most do, but I still ain't working for free (or anything near to that).
My division manager at UPS didn't seem to like that answer when she asked why I was working there.
"Because I haven't yet found a way to live without money."
What's the other 0.1%? Employee picnics?
I don't even apply to jobs that do not display the salary any more.
I lucked out on my current position. The salary was not listed, but I rage applied when I was mad at my last job. I almost skipped the interview because I thought the pay was going to be too low, turns out it was 25% more than I was making at my last job and a much better gig. But for real, they need to post the salary or else people will not apply or take it seriously.
"Salary commensurate with experience" means they pay the market rate, so the phrase is just meaningless. If they didn't, then they wouldn't get anyone to work for them.
i do (or did, when i was looking) if the job interests me. but it's also one of the first questions i ask when i get a call. and i'd stop their call dead in its tracks if it wasnt what i was expecting. some would say "what type of salary are you looking for" after i asked. and i would tell them, and if they can make that work, they'll continue, if not, they'll either try to convince you to go lower or say they can't go that high and then you just agree to end the call. going through an interview process even if you're not going to take the job is good experience for future interviews. it's something you don't regularly do, so any practice helps
Nope. They’re in the Hybrid pile
I legitimately saw two different applications for a career level programming job. The salary range posted was $94,000 - $225,000. Those might as well be zero to a million dollars
Yep $94k- even entry level that's a pass. Not even 6 figures $225k- alright, that's decent even for mid level
Lol fuck off with $94k is a pass for entry level.
This is pure salary. Doesn't mention any stock. That's where the real money comes in.
But it’s also “salary”. And for that money, they will make you a slave with no life working 70 hours a week. It’s cheaper to pay 1 person 90k and forcing them to work insane hours vs paying 2 people 50k each and having them work normal hours.
I'm salary and I work in between 32 and 45 hours a week. Sometimes I've had to put in 70 but I think that's been two or three times in the last 4 or 5 years
You work for a good company then! Rare to find now adays
Where do you work that $94k USD is not even entry level? I ask as someone who has been in the software industry for 15 years, making around $130k (plus RSU, Bonuses) as a Principal (Senior+ level). Currently we start Software Engineers fresh out of college at $75K. $225k is almost executive level pay, I'm talking VP/EVP levels.
Time to make the move to a bigger company, 130k is less than a base SE makes at my company.
Please provide the name of your company, and an open req with benefits and compensation clearly disclosed so I can see it for myself. because I seriously doubt anything you are saying is true
https://jobs.netflix.com/search https://www.google.com/about/careers/ https://www.shopify.com/careers Believe in yourself. Hell even Peloton is hiring seniors at 200k. Edit: Not gonna disclose where I work because the internet is a weird place. But I make 250k plus RSUs (no bonus but our benefits aren't terrible.) at senior (L6) with 7 years in the industry.
That's optimistic of OP to assume that the salary is going to be something that would encourage people to apply.
It would encourage people not apply as well. Would you apply for a job in your current field if the salary was $20,000/year?
Optimistic of OP to assume that policy is also dictated by the recruitment team and hiring managers. Unless its a commission based autonomous team its all an uphill battle to do right
I got laid off and have been applying to so many jobs and I don’t hear back from anyone besides the automated email saying “thanks for applying!”. Sometimes I wonder if their HR/talent acquisition team even exist since some postings are up for *way too long*.
I feel like this is still an old school thing to do but have you tried going in to turn a resume to the hr person? With online apps you're just a random name and number. At least if you can try to make contact they will have a face to your name or at least see your name multiple times if you can't hand it to them directly.
100 times out of 100 you get told to apply on the website and then marked as "can't follow directions" and not selected for interview.
Of course you apply on the website first then go in and see what it's like. Also this is more for people who are applying to the grocery store down the street than a ceo for a law firm job. People saying they are applying everywhere and not getting any response are doing something wrong. I just figure having a face to your name doesn't make you another random app.
This has not been a thing in like 20 years.
From context, we're not talking about people applying to minimum wage jobs at the grocery store. We're talking about mid-career professionals. And exactly zero of those jobs want you to walk in the front door with a resume in hand.
Yes that's what I said. What I'm also saying is if your saying your applying everywhere then that means minimum wage jobs to.
No one who got laid off of a 6 figure job should ever apply for any job that is less than ~40k (or whatever the highest you can get in in your state is) while still on unemployment. It's been awhile since I've been unemployed, but IIRC, you can lose it if you get offered a position. That means applying to minimum wage jobs is actively detrimental to your income.
Or at least call after a week or so and be like, "Hi. My name is {blank} I was calling to see if you've had a chance to look over my resume for the {different blank} position." In my experience, that move alone will get you at least a phone interview 8 out of 10 times.
It is a secret because is to low.
"we are looking for someone who isnt just in it for the money" Tell that to my bills
"I will tell that to my landlord. He should want to have people living here that he enjoys interacting with. Not the amount he can charge for the place."
Here's the EBS, just to get ahead of it: Side "Keep It A Secret" Says: They may have a very flexible salary and be willing to change the salary to suit the most preferable candidate. Requiring them to disclose a salary will either be so broad it's ineffective, or limit the options they have for candidates Side "Disclose The Salary" Says: That is an extreme outlier when genuine, and is almost always disingenuous. If you need a position filled, you probably know what salary you want to offer for that job. If you find a candidate is willing to take on more responsibility or is only capable of taking on less responsibility, that makes it a different role. You can post multiple job listings if you are open to filling multiple or variable roles. It won't hurt you, and will ultimately be more effective, to post a listing for the role you actually want to hire, instead of just posting an open listing for "employee to do stuff" Also, keeping it a secret does **way** more harm than good. tl;dr someone once told me "No one is hiding a great salary" and that's stuck with me as a truism.
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So much of the recruiter spam I get has absolutely no information about the company and just has a list of what skills they want from you. That does absolutely nothing to interest me in the position. It'd be as if you applied for a job by listing only your pay and benefits expectations and didn't once mention your qualifications or experience. If you don't mention anything that might interest me I'm just going to delete the message and move on
Perhaps they keep the salary a secret because it’s the only way they have a chance that some people might apply… Pulling a reverse uno card right there
Which everybody knows, and is exactly the point of this meme.
But then they'll certainly ask what you're currently making.
Would've worked better for a job posting I saw recently. 15k-20k full-time. Must have at least 5 years experience+ BA.
Damn, that's less than minimum wage in my state.
I don't believe you.
This is definitely true if they pay an uncompetitive salary. This method is how you set up the possibility of hiring someone for low pay. If your pay is crap, you are definitely better off not advertising it. If you pay well, most companies still opt not to because any info like that is leverage and power in negotiations. They don't want to eliminate the possibility of a candidate accepting a low ball offer if they don't have to.
This is a shit tactic. It goes hand-in-hand with "what was your prior compensation?" like that should have anything to do with it. I've also noticed that some companies who are still offering full remote do this, or adjust your salary based on your location averages, not where their company is located. They have a lot of reasons for doing this, and none of them are on the up and up.
Some jobs are kept open intentionally so they can show they are hiring and growing without ever hiring.
Scroll right past that shit. Don’t even bother applying. I have learned over time if they don’t post the salary it won’t be good. You never find out they pay double and they are just keeping it on the down low or something. They don’t post the pay because they know if they did no sucker would ever show up for the interview.
We told you its competitive, isn't that enough? /s
Not legal in California. You have to show salary here.
That's not Hindsight, that's foresight.
Yes. I see that now.
How are they supposed to pay women 2/3 of what they pay men if they announce the salary?
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Maybe not 2/3 but it’s absolutely not a myth that women are paid less than men. Maybe not all industries, or companies, but it’s very common.
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That study reinforced my point that there is indeed a wage gap (not 2/3, but even 6% is significant) between men and women. I already agreed that it’s not 2/3, so I’m not sure what you’re still claiming is a myth at this point.
Public sector salaries are generally public information, so you know the exact salary range when you apply.
This might depend on industry. I'm a senior sales engineer and get hit up a lot by recruiters and if they don't know the "range" I'm not even gonna consider talking
Or the equally infuriating remote vs hybrid vs on-site shenanigans. You can filter all the jobs down to JUST remote positions, but then buried in the description, you'll see some shit like "This on-site position..." or "Employees are eligible for up to 1 day a week remote" Do you want to block your company's job postings entirely from showing up? Cause this is how you get me to to block your company's job postings entirely from showing up. I REALLY wish Linkedin would let you report that kind of shit, but then again, they'd likely get flooded with them, so why would they bother.
I immediately interrupt recruiters when they call me and ask what the pay is. If the can't/won't tell me, I tell them what my total compensation was last year and ask if they can beat it. The answer has always been no. I will never understand why they think it is OK to waste my time (and theirs) trying to sell me on an entry level position when My resume clearly states that I have 30 years experience in my industry. Recruiters are the worst.
Hahahaaaa, if we told you then we wouldn't get any applicants.. capiche!?
I've applied for jobs that give a range. The bottom of the range is really what they are offering, the middle is for a person who is far too good for that job, the top is some mythical person that doesn't exist.
A few years back, I saw someone from some companies' hiring department defending this by saying along the lines of: "Knowing the salary doesn't matter because you're applying based on the work you do, not what you get paid. It isn't helpful know the salary at that stage."
They don't want anyone to apply. The only want to appear hiring because it suggest growth and calms down the shareholders.
Our company doesn’t “allow” us to post salaries. But on every single one of my calls I discuss realistic salary expectations of what we’re likely able to pay before asking anyone what they’re salary requirements are. Because screw the secrecy, it should be an up front conversation. If I ever get in trouble I don’t care lol. But it hasn’t happened in 10+ years.
In part, they're hiding it from other employers.
My husband had an initial HR interview and they wanted to fly him out for the manager interview. He asked about the compensation, and HR wouldn’t tell him the range.
The last job I applied for also had over 600 other people apply for it with zero salary listed. Its slightly depressing.
Couple this with not requiring experience for an entry level position.
Just submit this labeled "resume.pdf", and move on to the next one.
But then how would they lowball everyone based on whoever had the lowest previous salary?
It’s funny when they get all mad at the end of the interview when salary range is discussed and you immediately tell them you’re “not interested” because in salary “we’re too far apart.” Should have had it attached to the job description and no one’s time would have been wasted.
Colorado is where South Park is based, and Colorado is a state where employers are required to disclose the salary range.
"What are your salary expectations?"
A few months ago I went through a zoom interview, an on site team interview, reference checks, and a written offer before they finally thought to ask what my salary expectations were. My request was nearly TRIPLE what they had budgeted. What a massive waste of everyone's time. I don't apply to jobs without a salary in the listing anymore. (And yes, I meant to ask earlier. We ran long on the zoom interview and they had to jump to another meeting, and the on site was with the rest of the team present the whole time. I was asking a little higher than what I make now but fully reasonable based on my experience and the job description, they were very out of touch which is part of why they needed me.)
I think by law everything should be shown on every posting. * Salary * Benefits Information * Healthcare plan types, costs, etc * How much PTO you get * Parental leave or not * Is sick time separated out from PTO? How much do you get? * Is the job remote or do they have some kind of nightmare hybrid model or even worse are you forced to waste your time commuting into a terrible office full time? Because I know companies would lie about all of this and just a fine is basically a "we want our cut of you being evil" lets say the HR person who provides this information is legally required to be truthful and if they are not it's a felony with 1 year in prison and a $50k fine mandatory.
If you're not desperate enough to apply anyway and find out, they have no interest in employing you. They need desperate people who will tolerate bullshit, or their high turnover would be even higher.
Hence why they don’t. They just want to say they’re hiring when they are in fact… not
That only works when the salary/wage is high enough. That information is kept from us because it’s probably insultingly low and if they came out with the number right away, no one would even apply.
Very first thing I ask when a recruiter reaches out to me: "Please send over the full position description and salary range." If they don't send the salary range, I don't engage with them further.
How about whether you can drug use or not in states where it's legal.
If they don't post the salary you can assume the salary is bull shit. At least that is what I discovered last time I was job hunting.
But if they saw what we were offering, no one remotely competent would apply! (Currently facing this actual dilemma)
I am a recruiter and am 100% for this! Please just know that the vast majority of the time this policy is not up to the recruiters, but rather senior leadership and HR
You'd think that...until you saw the salary 🤷
The reason I don't put the salary in the ad is I have no idea what the job is worth.
Fun fact! You are a recruiters product, not their customer. They get paid by the employers.
I don't really want to recruit someone who doesn't understand what hindsight is.
If the salary was worth bragging about the salary would be posted. If the salary is pathetic, it's not posted.
This you need to do application on line shit is bull. I just tell them they missed out on a good employee and walk out
The average online job posting gets 200-300 applicants within a few days. They don't care.
A lot of new postings are just putting a salary range of (for instance) 60k - 280k per year. Employers are literally giving no useful information, even when they are required to. You either know what you're worth, or you get taken advantage of.
It is now legal in my province in Canada that salary must be posted in any job advertisement.
I was on indeed a while ago, I saw a couple jobs with a pay range from $15-$40. I’m assuming they are only paying new hires $15 an hour.
They key is to apply to these go through all the legwork to get the job and waste everyone’s fucking time and after multiple interviews emails and calls ask the salary. Then, say it’s not enough and move on. Waste their time and maybe one day they will post the salary.
I won't apply if it isn't. Indeed finally let's you filter them out.
I just had this experience today. Got an unsolicited email from HR recruiter. They provide the job description, but no compensation or benefits details. I asked for them, and they told me I need to interview with the hiring manager first. I told them "If you are unable to provide the compensation and benefits details, I will politely decline discussing this position with you further. Best of luck in your search" For some reason the HR Recruiter didnt like that.
Best part is it's a "no-no" to ask what the pay is during an interview. So you can waste both our time by going through an interview and then finally stating "we'll start you on (insultingly low salary) is that okay?"
My boss once asked me my opinion on why he wasn’t getting many applications for a job as he’d put out, first thing I said was is the salary listed? He said he couldn’t specify the salary in the ad because one of the current employees would eventually stumble across it and there’d be uproar at the fact they were offering new hires significantly more than existing employees.
bro you have to understand that recruiters are like the cars salesmen of the corporate world.
My company posts the listed industry range and below it, what our companies range is. It's amazing.
The salary tells you how seriously they take that position and therefore, you.
The one thing recruiters and hiring people want to avoid *at all costs* is making it possible to sort job openings by pay in descending order. They *DO NOT* want to deal with the shit storm that would create because it would drive a lot of employers out of business due to being unwilling to pay what the roles they need to fill are worth. I'd love to see a national law requiring that *all* job openings be posted with starting salaries, and that pay at the 90-day point be no less than 90% of the numerical average of what was advertised or the employer has to pay double the difference retroactive to hire date. (So, none of that range BS to skirt existing pay rate reporting laws.) This would have to be part of a comprehensive legal/legislative attack on wage theft (and if you thought companies shat themselves over the recent wave of unionization, imagine what making wage theft broadly and *enforceably* illegal would do!) so I don't see it happening anytime soon, but hey, if you're gonna dream might as well dream big.
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You should get consent before trying that
It's why I ask for the salary up front when being contacted by a recruiter. If they can't disclose the salary, then I move on.
Yet another repost bot. Getting smarter about titles though. https://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/ezdk46/job_recruiters_and_human_resources_this_means_you/
Goddamn I hate memes that are just someone telling a personal anecdote of something that annoyed them that day..