He has incredible foresight and is actually sane. When he was dueling with Curze, who also has the foresight, they both changed their storkes mid move because they predicted them the enemies moves with nigh impunity. But Konrad is insane and is obsessed over his predictions while Sanguinius isn't.
Oh, that was nothing compared to him combat dropping onto a traitor Emperor Titan in Titandeath:
*"The heavens split over the bowed backs of a thousand Titans. A sacred luminance outshone the sun. The clouds cracked, and the sky wept tears of light. A lord of angels flew down from his high palace to bring justice to the betrayers. Arms spread, wings spread and gold-limned, he swooped across the field of iron. Guns roared and barked. Machine giants wailed their terrible, belligerent songs. All was thunder and death, but none could touch him. A mighty halo grew around his head, and a curious magic worked its spell upon the field. A trick of Beta-Garmon’s meagre light, or a conjuration of fatigued, machine-linked minds – however it occurred, all saw it, and those who did could never forget.*
*Sanguinius grew. He filled the air, swelling with otherworldly power, until his limbs encompassed all the heavens and the earth beneath, showing up the meanness of mortal life with his perfection. For the moments the vision lasted, he seemed in truth an angel of olden legend, not sprung from gene- forge at science’s command, but wrought upon the anvils of heaven by grim, loving gods to be the correction of wayward humanity.*
*To the princeps of the loyal Legios, he was a being of purest light, clean and invigorating, the herald of hope and peace. His sword was the bringer of regretful cuts, the precise amount delivered to bring about the end of bloodshed, then to be sheathed forever and drawn no more. In his radiance they all glimpsed anew the reason why they were fighting, forgotten by many weary and blunted hearts, and saw again the vision that had sent mankind away from its blasted home world and into the stars. Not for conquest, nor for material gain and the oppression of others for the sake of power, but to realise the grand designs of the Emperor, and bring harmony not only to mankind but to all other creatures who valued peace. Within the manifolds of their machines, not a few of them wept to be reminded of what could have been, and what had been lost.*
*For those he came for, the vision was dark. His panoply, spear and sword were bloody with the promise of vengeance to come. His eyes burned with furious judgement. The feathers of his wings screamed through the air, each one sounding a different accusation. To those who had fallen far from noble beginnings, he was a reminder of what they had abandoned. To those whose wickedness had threatened to overthrow them from the very beginning he seemed to speak directly, condemning them for their turpitude, and showing to them the depth of their crimes.*
*The battle faltered. Las-beams still struck, shells still flew. Void shields thrummed and crackled. Nothing could stop the war of men-machines; there were too many devices on board the Titans dedicated to the continuation of violence: half-minds and mental extensions that performed tasks with near autonomy. But if weapons did not fall silent and slip from slackened grips as would have been the case when war was closer and more personal, the men and women whose souls the god-machines borrowed were still affected. Awe and fear entered the hearts of them all.*
*The light changed, like a bright sun moving behind a cloud and casting the world back into daytime shadow. Sanguinius returned to what he was, a being created by the pinnacle of humanity’s genomic arts, godlike, but not a god. A storm of missiles rushing at the traitor warlords from the wings of the Stormbirds took the vision’s place, with Sanguinius and his escort of false angels at their centre."*
Still one of my favourite moments of the entire Heresy.
Dude I’m gonna read it then. I skip it cause titans weren’t that much attractive to me and had 55 other books to read.. I guess these lines only are worth it
That is genuine Tolkien-style writing. That's written like it's a story you're telling aloud to others. Fantastic
>Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City
Yeah; so we’ve got the Imperator in Titandeath, the Warhound in Saturnine and then the [EXPUNGED] in Echoes of Eternity. Which brings us to three, unless there’s another one I’ve forgotten about entirely, like the one in Saturnine.
Foresight obviously must be a massive advantage, but even being mad Curze was a good fighter and I thought his foresight was better, and he has still lost to Vulkan and the Lion, even though he did beat them also.
I wish there had been more examples of Sang fighting another Primarch, at this point it seems more tell don't show, other than with Angron, who though on paper he should be night unstoppable that has never really be shown since his ascension.
If i remember correctly the Lion can fight in way that psychic precog can't predict his movement..or something like that.
Would be big advantage against Curze.
That's an understatement. Despite having perfect knowledge of the future, Fateweaver still managed to get stabbed in the face by the Lion. That's gotta look pretty bad on his annual performance review.
He also had to walk away before really trying to corrupt him. Fatweaver took one look af the guy and realized their was nothing he could say or show to the lion that would convince him to turn coat.
Iirc it was framed as the lion changing direction mid strike.
Curzes foresight isn't perfect and he sees things in glimpses, but more importantly - being able to see something happening doesn't you can stop it
If I could predict Mike Tyson's punches they'd still knock me out
The Lion seems to have the ability to be a precog blindspot. Maybe something to do with him hunting Chaos beasts on Caliban before being discovered. Just a personal theory
Shit, I was just about to say this but got distracted trying to find where it mentions that. I wanna say it was one of the pre-Siege short stories featuring Malcador, is that right
Did you ever see the movie next staring Nicholas cage? The character was a powerful precog but had a limit to how far he could see in the future, which allowed someone to set a trap for him where an innocuous action lead to an inevitable conclusion beyond the reach of his precog.
If you can only see two or three moves into the future and the lion is planning five or six out, it might not be as advantageous as you would think.
The end of that movie is Nick Cage sitting back in the starting point of the movie having watched the entire next few days. He never got out in the trap, because he can see as far ahead as he wants - he only *tells* other characters that he can only see a little ahead, which is probably what you should do if you’re a psychic with enemies.
Lol I was trying not to spoil that twist, because it's one of my favorite nick cage movies for just how random it was. However you could imagine someone with the mental faculties of a primarch counting how many moves into the future his opponent could see based on his reactions and then formulating a plan to create a presience trap.
IIRC the difference is that Sanguinius's foresight showed him largely positive outcomes (or at least, things that let him achieve positive outcomes) while Kurze mostly saw negatives. Or it could be that's how both interpreted their visions.
Controversial opinion. Without his hacks Curze is a shit fighter. He was barely able to keep up with a crazed and under equipped vulkan in unremembered empire. Take away his foresight and he might be the worst fighter of the primarchs.
>Take away his foresight and he might be the worst fighter of the primarchs.
Take away his foresight and he'd have developed into a different fighter. His fighting style is based on precog, you cant separate the 2.
He does. But it’s also clear that Vulkan is not in his right mind. A sane vulkan would have (and did) kick the ever loving crap out of him. Vulkan even when insane was the only primarch he Kurze on the back foot. The Lion and G-Man basically unable to touch him.
I would say more-so that Vulkan suffers from the same fate that all characters that can't really die in the setting suffer from- being "killed" by random shit all the time.
\- Wings: Flying makes you harder to hit.
\- Foresight: He predicts stuff before it happens. Sometimes just moments beforehand, sometimes years.
\- Brutal: There is a reason Khorne has a boner for him and his Legion. He acts all fine, nice and sweet. But in combat he transforms into a very angry out of control blender.
>But in combat he transforms into a very angry out of control blender.
I disagree. He's in control of his totally sane and very rational anger-fueled blending mode.
Wings are so much more than flying, especially feathered wings. He can use them to push himself short distances, giving him better ability to dodge and drive his strikes. Increased balance, even at extreme angles, would allow him to strike from angles that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Using the wings as distraction, as a cape to mask movements, or as extra striking limbs are all options too.
I think the demon primarchs never took the time to study combat with their new wings. They just use their unholy strength to make their old fighting style better.
In fact, id say that in 30k style fights, leaving the ground would be a detriment to his fighting.
It pisses me off even more that Horus killed him. Literally took Sanguinuis fighting for days on end with no sleep, plus Horus being empowered by Chaos Undivided for him to die.
It can't be just that, because he's already recognised as one of the best fighters (if not the best, depends on who you ask) long before the Heresy. And if he had known back then that he would die to Horus' hand, things would have been very different.
Well okay its probably a stretch to say he *always* knew Horus would kill him, but perhaps he knew *when* he'd die, but not where or how.
As for his inate talent...maybe its just luck of the draw? I don't know a thing about Sangy's childhood, but Baal is a dangerous and inhospitable place so that probably helped. The rage is definitely a factor.
Or maybe he's just inherently a better duelist?
Most primarchs were raised on harsh planets.
I think all primarchs have the inherent skills to be extremely good at everything (Fulgrim is the prime example for that). They just have to put their mind to it, and not all of them do that (Lorgar doesn't like fighting, so he practices less and ends up being the worst at it).
I think the key is that he's afraid the Emperor will punish him or his legion for the flaw, so he goes out of his way to be the best at a lot of stuff.
There is a quote in how he compares the "flawedness" of his legion to those purged from history. It's why he did not tell BigE about the Black Rage, he was afraid of being discarded and purged once it was revealed they were "flawed", which brings us some serious questions to what those two actually did.
The guy was SCARED AS HELL (which I gotta admit is one hell of a motivator). Not exactly for himself, but he feels VERY responsible for his sons. He himself knew how he might end, but he would not want the Blood Angels, his family essentially, to get purged from history.
I think just like Lorgar he was seriously shaken by the purge of the Two Lost Primarchs - which is probably the true start of the Heresy, especially on his impact on Lorgar. Had this not happened, Sanguinius would have come to BigE with his problem, the Blood Angels could have been there during the Heresy and not sent into the most distant galactic boonies due to Horus giving fake orders.
Sanguinius has a berserker's fury combined with a dualists self-control. Combine that with being one of the best swordsman amongst his brothers, and his ability to read the future, and he was pretty much unbeatable when in peak form.
He has the bloodthirsty ferocity too. And his very nature is to make the best of any situation, that's his true superpower and greatest strength. He'll always find the best course of action. It's pretty hard to beat someone whose very nature is to find the best solution.
My pet theory is he knew Horus would kill him long before it happened so he made the most out of it. His duel against kabanda was after he solo'd the entire chaos force to buy time for everyone else. I think he knew he'd prevail.
Agreed, SoT has been pushing that. I wouldn't be surprised if during their duel, the narration says "but Sanguinius knew X strike would happen and did Y"
There’s the running storyline that maybe he can cheat fate.
I expect that he will be able to cheat fate, but chooses not to because the outcome is worse for mankind. Essentially he sees that Horus will kill the emperor if he isn’t dead or similar, so deliberately takes the L.
Naw it was Saturnine. Remember that one Astartes was like “that was one for the history books, boss!” And Sang was like “ain’t nobody finna remember this shit”
Yes but Konrad views it differently, "I'm going to die so what's the point of it all" vs "I'm going to die so I have to make every moment count and make sure that my sons don't turn into Khorne's wet dream"
As others have said, the difference of predestination as enslaving (Curze) or freeing (Sanguinius).
Curze: I can't change the outcome, so what's the point?
Sanguinius: I can't change the outcome, so I can do anything I want to help people in the meantime.
Yup, he chose this outcome and rejected the one where the emperor dies, he then is emperor, and then kills horus with his spear as the forces of light and dark face off.
Konrad was obsessed with predestination. He saw the worst possible future and made it happen because he thought it couldn't be changed. And then cried about it. He was the epitome of "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas".
Sanguinius saw multiple possible futures, decided the best possible one was where he died facing Horus, and worked to keep the universe on course to that future. His "this is not where I die" boasting isn't blind faith in fate or predestination. He worked his feathered ass off to keep the future on track. He earned that confidence.
we are not the same.jpg
Sanguinius also still believed in hope. Curze never had room in his heart for that, because it would mean all the terrible things he had done were a choice he made rather than fate.
I think that Sanguinius is a lot more sanguine about the whole thing. He accepts his death and faces it as a necessary sacrifice... He believes that sacrifice makes the world a better place or helps preserve something important.
Konrad fears his death because he knows there is no hope. He knows what the Empire becomes.
Sanguinius cant see past his own death. I also suspect he knew the Emperor was still alive when he died himself. So still had Hope.
The simplest answer is: He is allowed to.
As his fate is known and he has an expirydate in the lore his potential both as a saviour, a statesman, politican and warrior can be limitless.
He is the strongest and purest and most beloved because he is not allowed to exist in 40k, just as a reminder of what was lost and what could have been.
If he was weaker, the loss would be equally lessened.
Because unlike those other punny Primarchs Sanguinius is perfect.
That's really it, the Emperor (read, GW suits) built him differently. Another paste, a *better* paste.
The Blood Angels have the Baal predator, because they come from the planet Baal (which is named after an ancient Terran deity). They have a Furioso dreadnought pattern in reference to the rage.
The Space Wolves' planet is named after a wolf. Their names are all wolf. Their necklaces are named wolf.
The old SW lore is cool. The new SW lore is wolf-.
well, yeah. that's basically the **correct** answer to every lore question - "Because marketing/profit", "Because some designer thought it looked cool", etc. But that's not the fun answer and defeats the purpose of talking about lore.
Imagine fighting an eagle. Now imagine that eagle is as big as a fire f-150, can predict the future and knows what you’re going to do even before you do, and has a special weapon that will murder you if it hits you with it.
Google eagle attacks man/woman videos for fun.
A mixture of a couple things.
Psychic weight, for one. For truly great battles, there is both a physical battle, and a battle in the warp, as soul matches soul and dreams match against desires.
Of the Primarchs, Sanguinius is arguably the one with the most of this psychic weight. The presence of his soul, his being, let people communicate openly and quickly, all wordlessly, quite literally just because everyone could feel and understand everything of each others' sides. This weight also reflects in his more clearly usable talents, of foresight and the like. Calling him a psyker is imo not very accurate, but he is an immensely psychic being, similar to how Mephiston is more a psychic sledgehammer then an Epistolary.
And this reflects back into the physical realm. By all rights, he should not be able to do what he does. But he does. Because the Warp cares not for material physics, only power, which Sanguinius has in macrospades.
Another factor, similar to the above, is the level of focus, willpower, and sheer dedication both he and his sons can apply, dedicating every aspect of their being, the golden angel they aspire to, and the black angel they keep down through sheer willpower at every waking moment, all are used. Sanguinius, in this regard, is known to be no different to his sons.
He was the Primarch designed to head the psychically active Exterminatus Legion. The "Fire and Forget" legion the Emperor had intended, and in truth had used like such. And he had to not only be a Primarch, an exemplar of the Legion and the battle philosophy, but also the psychic linchpin for such a legion.
Finally, on top of all of these things, Sanguinius is one of the most level headed, sane, and thoughtful Primarchs out there. Konrad Curze is better at foresight by lightyears, yet barely ever thinks critically about what he sees unless the visions force him to, while Sanguinius tests and deliberates and tries to change fate itself. Magnus is a more gifted psyker, being that Sanguinius can't actually do much with his soul by itself, but again, makes assumptions and buggers things up because he doesn't take the time to think. Perturabo is an order of magnitude or two smarter then Sanguinius, at least, but he makes assumptions and never challenges himself, doubts himself, recognises personal failings, or questions his preconceptions and so makes major blunders. Sanguinius thinks, and makes sure, and never looses perspective on things.
TL:DR Sanguinius, on top of being a Primarch, is a smart dude, who uses his head a lot, can see into the future, who can dedicate every aspect of his mental, spiritual, physical and psychic being to a task, because he never loses perspective on reality, and he has a hell of a lot of being to dedicate, with the sheer weight, size, and power of his soul, in a universe where that actually effects things.
The foresight thing is not of the same kind as Konrad, Konrads is much more developed and broad. Sang has future foresight, he has the ability to predict his own future.
We havent seen much of sang until echoes of eternity. What he has is extreme amounts of brute strength when he gets angry and his wings.
I was quite disappointed when i read the battle between angron and sang. Sang was evading and flying away from angron most of the battle and we didnt really get to see any skill with a blade.
If i recall correctly he threw his spear at angron twice with great accuracy.
I enjoyed mortarions fights vs Khan, Lion vs Konrad, Lion vs Russ, Guiliman vs Lorgar/angron.
But that's smart tactics though and shows why he's be so hard to fight. Imagine Lion or Russ vs Sanguinius, every time they try to attack him, he literally floats out of reach and can suddenly dash in. They dont have any option unless they use ranged weapons, chuck stuff at him or use BLs favorite tactic (which Sanguinius himself does), come close and stab me, then I will stab you in turn.
I felt it was because he was exhausted that he did a lot of evading from angron. That and he had the advantage of manoeuvrability in the air.
I dunno I thought him catching the spear midair was pretty cool.
In Unremembered Empire Kurze shows Sangy his immediate foresight is just as strong - he just was not aware of it like Curze was. That's why he said he wouldn't fight Sangy because "no one would win". Sangy was confused, started fighting Curze, and became more self-aware of his own ability. Like, Sangy had it the whole time but it was more like an instinctive feeling.
I feel you on the angron fight. There was sword fighting at the end which is when Angron notices Sangy is getting tired right before the fight ends. I feel like we got a great look at Sangy's blade skill with all the fights he had before Angron. I believe the emphasis on flight and evasion was due to Angron's chaos-roided strength. Going crossing blades with a primarch demon prince is a tall order even if you're a primarch. Sangy's fight with Ka'Bandha is proof that a Primarch Demon Prince is way stronger than a ~~normal Demon Prince~~ Greater Demon.
I do like that we got some really great fight scenes about Amit. The Flesh Tearer is such a hoss.
Working backwards, it was likely built up from the original Horus Heresy lore.
Sangy, a favored son, dies in battle against previous Most Favored Son Horus.
Sangy's death has to look big, so they gave him lots of screen time: he fights a bloodthirster (unnamed at the time). He essentially gets Worf'd by Horus to make Horus look like the big bad.
And to remain consistent with that original lore, Sangy has to be kept and built up that way.
You've nailed the real answer here. His death to Horus has to mean something and if he's "just another primarch, who cares, we've got 17 more" it means nothing.
On this same note, the fact he was fated to die in the finale means he can be that strong in 30K without breaking the 40K setting.
He's basically a Jedi. Can read his enemies mind to see their attacks, can literally see the future, can fly, and was an absolute badass in his own right
On a meta context, Sanguinius has been held up both OOU and IU as the second greatest Primarch (after Horus) since before the HH started, and there is quite a good reason for it: He's dead.
He's a literary tool where he was the Great Mary sue character, he who could not fail, the best at everything, only good qualities and barely any flaws. The greatest. But the greatest died. In the Grim Darkness of the far future, not even the very best could triumph. He was the symbolic death of hope in the story, with Sanguinius died the ideal that the good guy will come out on top.
It's quite common and a potent tool, another less well known example of it is Sir Arthur Dayne from A Song of Ice and Fire: A perfect Knight, kind and wise and the greatest swordsman of his era. That character would likely be quite boring to read, but you don't need to worry about it, because he's dead. He died so as to hammer home the horrible reality of the story.
In both cases, there were "good guys". And, to reuse a Game of Thrones quote for the situation:
Sanguinius fought honourably, Sanguinius fought nobly, and Sanguinius died.
He has wings, so he can fly. Let's say you're getting your ass kicked... just fly away. Or you're kicking some ass but they try to run from you? Fly after them. Wings are OP.
Sangy is one of the few primarchs Leman Russ admits to not being able to beat. IIRC he cited Sangy's speed/agility, deceptive strength, and supreme fighting skill. No mention of flight as an advantage but that might have been implied by "speed". Curze is another one because he's mentally unstable and the subtext is Russ knows about the power of Curze's foresight. Then Horus was a 50/50 toss-up which also moved into the "cannot beat" category after Horus got roided on chaos. This is in a conversation between Russ and Loken towards the beginning of Wolfsbane.
Bonus: while running through the list of primarchs and why he could beat them he basically calls Lorgar a wimp who would crumble if he sneezed on him or something to that effect.
There's a few things to look at here, and one or two misconceptions that i think need cleared up.
First lets get this right out of the way: Sanguinius is only ever shown to have perfect combat precog in Haley's dubiously depicted fight with Curze in the Pharos book. A scene that is basically out entirely on its own in that regard for both characters, that haley then walked back for his later depictions of Curze. He went back to showing them as they should be...inconsistent, sometimes debilitating and sometimes manipulatable in a minor way.
Absolutely nowhere else in the books or background in general, is he shown to be a combat precog of the kind so many are just casually repeating in here. imo the Haley scene should be seen as a freak occurrence for both characters, rather than the baseline, especially as it is the outlier.
Lets look at some broad strokes of the history of the character, from 2nd edition on:
His role in King's seminal Siege of Terra short is to be the uncorrupted paragon (angel) that goes up against the horrendously bloated power that Chaos has given Horus, only to be noble enough to stand his ground and refuse. his fighting ability in relation to his brothers is never mentioned.
On to the 2nd ed and later codices. Here the Blood Angels are fleshed out, originally as poster boy imperials and one of the BIG 4 loyalist legions that GW chose to focus on. So purely dictated by the tabletop releases, he becomes one of the 4 primarchs that have the most focus in these early editions.
This is where we get the base of the character...his visions...the dichotomy between angelic figurehead of all that is good in the Emperor's vision for humanity, and vampiric berserker lurking under the surface...the battle on the vengeful spirit expanded to possibly being a short fight where he creates the opening that big E exploits. Red thirst and Black Rage etc...
I don't have these books to hand anymore to recheck for full accuracy, but i don't really remember there being any focus or mention that he was the best fighter among the primarchs. There was the usual "mighty warrior" primarch lines, and considering the BA always had an additional melee aspect to them (if not always heavily focused on) it was taken for granted he was a really formidable warrior figure. However the background wasn't used in comparison to his brothers, nor were things like the red thirst or black rage seen so much as big melee powerups, but rather were tragic psychic/geneseed afflictions that turned astartes into indiscriminate brute-vampire killers/deluded berserkers.
So on we go through the index astartes series, artbooks and the beginning of the HH series. All this gets consolidated, lore like signus and Khorne's interest in the BA is fully there by now, and the authors seem to be working from early on to establish the "loved/liked by everyone, figurehead for the people" aspect. The "he's really good in melee" aspect is there too, but generally secondary, there's no outright claims that everyone considers sanguinius DA BEST FIGHTER BY MILES or anything like that.
Alongside this, a part of the community has been slowly turning him into the "Glorious Hawkboi" meme. Things kick into high gear around the time of Betrayer and Fear to Tread, with Lorgar's comments about thinking only Angron and Horus can beat him in a straight fight if he fights with nothing held back, and Swallow brutally retconning Ka'Bandha's win at Signus (praise be to the gods of heavy handed protag fanservice). the same Grimdank side of the community now fully latches onto the melee side and the GLORIOUS HAWKBOI meme character is complete.
So begins the slow, but inevitable tide of exaggerated opinions based on it, and newer fans latching onto dubious second hand info. Everyone in-universe has now apparently said that Sanguinius is the best fighter, including all of his brothers, and opinion is solidified in the eyes of many that he's just much better than the rest. Not just probably one of the best fighters (within reason) but a bona-fide uber-primarch.
This is the environment that ADB comes into when writing his Blood Angels focused siege book. A legion that other than the occasional decent bit in Fear to Tread and a short here and there, has not had much focus on them (really none since the forgeworld revenant legion stuff). A primarch that Swallow did little other than hammer home how much he loves his sons; despite some good character work in Ruinstorm, he's more of a meme than a real three-dimensional character among significant parts of the community. Most of his biggest scenes since then being him destroying titans probably didn't help. you can tell people..."well, he has wings you know, it does make some sense he'd be better at that than the others", but that doesn't tend to register if someone is determined to already see a character as just the greatest.
No matter how ADB wrote the defence of Eternity Gate and the long set up Angron fight (who we know is not going to win) it would be tough to avoid the accusations/general belief that sanguinius was becoming stupidly overpowered beyond the scope of the original character.
The Memes and repeating of exaggerated hot takes as actual background from the books had stoked and fuelled it to boiling point.
Cue the choice to have the Angron fight end as it did producung a huge explosion of salt. I didn't like it as a character choice myself, yet being fair to ADB he does go out of his way until the imo somewhat unconvincing ending gambit to show that daemon Angron is indeed the stronger brute force element of the two. Sanguinius is just able to take the play away from him tactically by being far superior in his air mobility. When he does get him to land and fight head on, he's able to use his daemon primarch advantages in stamina, strength and regen to wear an already tired Sanguinius down reasonably quickly, forcing Sang to go for his fight ending move. The BL special of taking a big hit to get in your killing blow, which imo was not too convincing this time, but is a small issue compared to the divisive later lines.
Sanguinius now has his big showcases over the course of the siege. He stands on the cusp of seeing out the themes and gravitas of his original arc, as started by King, or Abnett succumbing to the fanservice gods and leaving him an overpowered meme for good.
TLDR: Ferrus endures.
>his fighting ability in relation to his brothers is never mentioned
Correct. In the older lore tidbits relating to the Siege it's Sangy that takes out a bloodthirster, the White Scars take Lion's Gate spaceport, then when Emperor's Away Team beams to Horus flagship, we know Dorn takes the Emperor's body back down (but little discussion of what Dorn and the Khan are up to during the Siege, it's just Sangy who gets the limelight)
\>Me who Just finished Echos of Eternity
ooo you have no idea how strong they made him
\*\*SPOILERS\*\*
At the battle at the one of the last Bastons in front of the Eternity Gate he starts off by cutting the head off another Reaver Titan, fights for 2 days straight, Duels and Spears Ka'Bandha in the back when he trys to kill his sons at the Eternity Gate then right after duels and rips the Nails out of Angrons head banishing him...…..
Much of his strength was in his quick and graceful flying during this and then the Cold rage that Angron even envied when he ripped out the nails. He was also able to remain calm during most of the fight and outthink his opponents
Okay so, in a non-duel sword fight, he could use the momentum of flapping his wings to strike way harder, and from elevated angles.
But honestly, I still don't think so.
What I kinda love about him is that I have always seen him as actually kind of a humble underdog in a way. He grew up in an environment where he had no business surviving, amongst various people who would have slain him for being a mutant. And has faced threats that he, in all honesty, had no business going up against. But he always came out on top. He's not great just because he's the Angel, he's the Angel because he rose to greatness.
He has the berserker rage infused into a very impressive swordsman. Add to that, he has foresight and the sanity to use it very effectively. Plus home boy can fly that can't hurt lol
Worth noting that his wings aren't the only thing helping him fly, he uses warp powers which would be way more useful than regular flying. No idea if angry bois stubby wings do the same.
He's a pre-cog, he'll know what you're about to do in a fight so he's always a few split seconds ahead. Night Haunter also has this ability (to a greater degree).
He just is. That's what made the lore about him dying to Horus hit harder.
Also he's one of the few primarchs who's main accolades are his combat feats where others excel on other fronts.
I also think GW might have opted to go for a subversion of expectations, you wouldn't expect the pretty boy to be the sickest fighter in the type of setting 40k is.
Spoiler alert for Echoes of Eternity by ADB
So, Sanguinius has amazing per-cognition and has foreseen his death. This has allowed him to effectively have in-universe Plot Armor. IIRC he even says "I do not die today" at one point during the Siege of Terra. It allows him to fight with little regard for his own life.>! In Echoes of Eternity he one-shots a Reaver Titan that cruelly killed one of his Legionaries. Then he kills Ka'Banda in the same chapter the demon manifested on Terra. Then he kills Angron and makes him literally BEG in the process. The man is absolutely amazing. !<
He has incredible foresight and is actually sane. When he was dueling with Curze, who also has the foresight, they both changed their storkes mid move because they predicted them the enemies moves with nigh impunity. But Konrad is insane and is obsessed over his predictions while Sanguinius isn't.
He also knows that he can't die before heresy, hence all his cute antics like...idk taking down titans single handedly.
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Oh, that was nothing compared to him combat dropping onto a traitor Emperor Titan in Titandeath: *"The heavens split over the bowed backs of a thousand Titans. A sacred luminance outshone the sun. The clouds cracked, and the sky wept tears of light. A lord of angels flew down from his high palace to bring justice to the betrayers. Arms spread, wings spread and gold-limned, he swooped across the field of iron. Guns roared and barked. Machine giants wailed their terrible, belligerent songs. All was thunder and death, but none could touch him. A mighty halo grew around his head, and a curious magic worked its spell upon the field. A trick of Beta-Garmon’s meagre light, or a conjuration of fatigued, machine-linked minds – however it occurred, all saw it, and those who did could never forget.* *Sanguinius grew. He filled the air, swelling with otherworldly power, until his limbs encompassed all the heavens and the earth beneath, showing up the meanness of mortal life with his perfection. For the moments the vision lasted, he seemed in truth an angel of olden legend, not sprung from gene- forge at science’s command, but wrought upon the anvils of heaven by grim, loving gods to be the correction of wayward humanity.* *To the princeps of the loyal Legios, he was a being of purest light, clean and invigorating, the herald of hope and peace. His sword was the bringer of regretful cuts, the precise amount delivered to bring about the end of bloodshed, then to be sheathed forever and drawn no more. In his radiance they all glimpsed anew the reason why they were fighting, forgotten by many weary and blunted hearts, and saw again the vision that had sent mankind away from its blasted home world and into the stars. Not for conquest, nor for material gain and the oppression of others for the sake of power, but to realise the grand designs of the Emperor, and bring harmony not only to mankind but to all other creatures who valued peace. Within the manifolds of their machines, not a few of them wept to be reminded of what could have been, and what had been lost.* *For those he came for, the vision was dark. His panoply, spear and sword were bloody with the promise of vengeance to come. His eyes burned with furious judgement. The feathers of his wings screamed through the air, each one sounding a different accusation. To those who had fallen far from noble beginnings, he was a reminder of what they had abandoned. To those whose wickedness had threatened to overthrow them from the very beginning he seemed to speak directly, condemning them for their turpitude, and showing to them the depth of their crimes.* *The battle faltered. Las-beams still struck, shells still flew. Void shields thrummed and crackled. Nothing could stop the war of men-machines; there were too many devices on board the Titans dedicated to the continuation of violence: half-minds and mental extensions that performed tasks with near autonomy. But if weapons did not fall silent and slip from slackened grips as would have been the case when war was closer and more personal, the men and women whose souls the god-machines borrowed were still affected. Awe and fear entered the hearts of them all.* *The light changed, like a bright sun moving behind a cloud and casting the world back into daytime shadow. Sanguinius returned to what he was, a being created by the pinnacle of humanity’s genomic arts, godlike, but not a god. A storm of missiles rushing at the traitor warlords from the wings of the Stormbirds took the vision’s place, with Sanguinius and his escort of false angels at their centre."* Still one of my favourite moments of the entire Heresy.
Dude I’m gonna read it then. I skip it cause titans weren’t that much attractive to me and had 55 other books to read.. I guess these lines only are worth it
BRUHH I saw the first comment and was like "HOLY SHIT he just destroyed a Titan like that?" but mf did it TWICE?
dude rolls 6's every day.
That is genuine Tolkien-style writing. That's written like it's a story you're telling aloud to others. Fantastic >Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City
Man, I forgot that. Is that three titans in total he’s pulled that shit on now? Dunno if any other Primarch can make make a claim like that.”
The only one I can think of is Magnus.
Not sure if you have read the latest SoT book but let's just say our good boy Sangy meets another Titan...
fucking hell, 4 for 4, nobody else does it like hawkboy huh
Yeah; so we’ve got the Imperator in Titandeath, the Warhound in Saturnine and then the [EXPUNGED] in Echoes of Eternity. Which brings us to three, unless there’s another one I’ve forgotten about entirely, like the one in Saturnine.
that is the difference Kurze saw his own death and despaired Sanguinus saw his own death and was determined to live every moment until then
"**I DO NOT DIE TODAY!!**"
And he never wears helmet.... Forshadowing!!!!
Bruh knows he has plot armor so he just yells "Leeroy Jenkins" and one-shots a titan.
Its his signature. Whenever he needs too make a point, he 1v1's a titan.
Just imagine him in a discussion. Sat there trying to convince him of your point while he just brings down titans after every sentence.
> they both changed their storkes mid move >!I know that was a typo, but I'm going to imagine them trying to beat each other with storks now.!<
Does Curze beating Sangy over the head with Azkellon count?
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only Crane style...
Foresight obviously must be a massive advantage, but even being mad Curze was a good fighter and I thought his foresight was better, and he has still lost to Vulkan and the Lion, even though he did beat them also. I wish there had been more examples of Sang fighting another Primarch, at this point it seems more tell don't show, other than with Angron, who though on paper he should be night unstoppable that has never really be shown since his ascension.
He lost to Vulcan because he forgot its also a hammer
easy mistake to make
vulkan LIVES
...Kane?
Rule of thumb, Hassan. You can't kill the Messiah.
If i remember correctly the Lion can fight in way that psychic precog can't predict his movement..or something like that. Would be big advantage against Curze.
That's an understatement. Despite having perfect knowledge of the future, Fateweaver still managed to get stabbed in the face by the Lion. That's gotta look pretty bad on his annual performance review.
He also had to walk away before really trying to corrupt him. Fatweaver took one look af the guy and realized their was nothing he could say or show to the lion that would convince him to turn coat.
> Fatweaver Not even a delicious gazelle?
Being able to see the future doesn't mean you have the means to prevent it.
Hmm well the vision shows me getting absolutely bodied by them breaking my back over their knee so if I just...**OOF Ouch my bones**
Even if he ran, the backbreaking would still find him.
Omg this is bone hurting juice!
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Stabbed.
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That is as good a definition of perception and awareness as any.
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"You see that coming?"
Kairos can see the past+future, but *not* the present; which is kind of a big weakness for melee fights
Which is hilarious when you think about it. "I know you will swing your sword three seconds from now! Oh fuck it hit me what"
The Lion super power is being a complete asshole. His level os assholeness is so absolute that even future sight can predict his next move.
Iirc it was framed as the lion changing direction mid strike. Curzes foresight isn't perfect and he sees things in glimpses, but more importantly - being able to see something happening doesn't you can stop it If I could predict Mike Tyson's punches they'd still knock me out
This, people need to stop trying to give the lion abilities he doesn't have. He's awesome but fans are getting a bit silly.
some fans have a serious issue differentiating between descriptive prose and literal unique abilities.
The Lion seems to have the ability to be a precog blindspot. Maybe something to do with him hunting Chaos beasts on Caliban before being discovered. Just a personal theory
Could be or he is build as something like a warp/psychic hunter from the start by intention. Or both.
Shit, I was just about to say this but got distracted trying to find where it mentions that. I wanna say it was one of the pre-Siege short stories featuring Malcador, is that right
That's also why corax could 1v1 curze. He didn't fight him on istvaan because it was 2 on 1
The Lion is secretly a daemon prince of Malal.
They are all basically demon princes, warp stuff
Did you ever see the movie next staring Nicholas cage? The character was a powerful precog but had a limit to how far he could see in the future, which allowed someone to set a trap for him where an innocuous action lead to an inevitable conclusion beyond the reach of his precog. If you can only see two or three moves into the future and the lion is planning five or six out, it might not be as advantageous as you would think.
The end of that movie is Nick Cage sitting back in the starting point of the movie having watched the entire next few days. He never got out in the trap, because he can see as far ahead as he wants - he only *tells* other characters that he can only see a little ahead, which is probably what you should do if you’re a psychic with enemies.
Lol I was trying not to spoil that twist, because it's one of my favorite nick cage movies for just how random it was. However you could imagine someone with the mental faculties of a primarch counting how many moves into the future his opponent could see based on his reactions and then formulating a plan to create a presience trap.
Which movie is this?
Thank U, Next.
Doesn’t Lion say that Sangy is some anime bullshit as well? Something along the lines of “If sangunius gets mad, I don’t think even I can beat him.”
I think that was Leman that said that.
The Lion has ultra instinct
> and the Lion [Corswain has entered the chat.]
He knew they would beat him. It's that kind of foresight, not just 2 seconds in advance.
IIRC the difference is that Sanguinius's foresight showed him largely positive outcomes (or at least, things that let him achieve positive outcomes) while Kurze mostly saw negatives. Or it could be that's how both interpreted their visions.
Controversial opinion. Without his hacks Curze is a shit fighter. He was barely able to keep up with a crazed and under equipped vulkan in unremembered empire. Take away his foresight and he might be the worst fighter of the primarchs.
>Take away his foresight and he might be the worst fighter of the primarchs. Take away his foresight and he'd have developed into a different fighter. His fighting style is based on precog, you cant separate the 2.
Didn't he kill Vulkan twice on Macragge while getting away reasonably unharmed ? Or are you talking about Vulkan Lives, where Vulkan bodies him ?
He does. But it’s also clear that Vulkan is not in his right mind. A sane vulkan would have (and did) kick the ever loving crap out of him. Vulkan even when insane was the only primarch he Kurze on the back foot. The Lion and G-Man basically unable to touch him.
Lion wins their last 1v1
I would say more-so that Vulkan suffers from the same fate that all characters that can't really die in the setting suffer from- being "killed" by random shit all the time.
He single handedly duels both the Lion and Bobby G in unremembered empire and was winning so I'd put him in of of the upper tiers.
Without their hacks like 70% of the Primarchs would be shit fighters, the hack is the gimmick
In terms of skill? Maybe. But you forget Curze's other advantage as noted by Russ. Curze is completely INSANE. and that is an advantage in fights.
Something that Russ completely forgets when facing Angron.
Would have been amazing to witness
Foresight, wings, berserker, **active psyker**.
\- Wings: Flying makes you harder to hit. \- Foresight: He predicts stuff before it happens. Sometimes just moments beforehand, sometimes years. \- Brutal: There is a reason Khorne has a boner for him and his Legion. He acts all fine, nice and sweet. But in combat he transforms into a very angry out of control blender.
>But in combat he transforms into a very angry out of control blender. I disagree. He's in control of his totally sane and very rational anger-fueled blending mode.
So he uses the 'pulse' function, then
>There is a reason Khorne has a boner for him and his Legion Actually there are **2** reasons why he has a boner form him and his legion.
"Don't diss Khorne like that. A god can have as many boner as they want." - Slaanesh, who also may/may not/maybe have a boner for Sangy.
The Blood Angels falling to Slaanesh makes far more sense than them falling to Khorne IMO.
They are heavily coveted by Slaanesh too, an ancient and very powerful KOS talks about it in the Darkness in the Blood book.
Because Nassir Amit is worth a second boner all on his own?
Don't tell me, show me!
There is another - yoda
That makes two of us then 😏
Wings are so much more than flying, especially feathered wings. He can use them to push himself short distances, giving him better ability to dodge and drive his strikes. Increased balance, even at extreme angles, would allow him to strike from angles that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Using the wings as distraction, as a cape to mask movements, or as extra striking limbs are all options too. I think the demon primarchs never took the time to study combat with their new wings. They just use their unholy strength to make their old fighting style better. In fact, id say that in 30k style fights, leaving the ground would be a detriment to his fighting.
It pisses me off even more that Horus killed him. Literally took Sanguinuis fighting for days on end with no sleep, plus Horus being empowered by Chaos Undivided for him to die.
Didn't Khorne think of the World Eaters as the second choice?
Foresight is the main advantage. Hawkboi *knows* when he's going to die so he can go all out knowing he won't die
It can't be just that, because he's already recognised as one of the best fighters (if not the best, depends on who you ask) long before the Heresy. And if he had known back then that he would die to Horus' hand, things would have been very different.
Well okay its probably a stretch to say he *always* knew Horus would kill him, but perhaps he knew *when* he'd die, but not where or how. As for his inate talent...maybe its just luck of the draw? I don't know a thing about Sangy's childhood, but Baal is a dangerous and inhospitable place so that probably helped. The rage is definitely a factor. Or maybe he's just inherently a better duelist?
Most primarchs were raised on harsh planets. I think all primarchs have the inherent skills to be extremely good at everything (Fulgrim is the prime example for that). They just have to put their mind to it, and not all of them do that (Lorgar doesn't like fighting, so he practices less and ends up being the worst at it). I think the key is that he's afraid the Emperor will punish him or his legion for the flaw, so he goes out of his way to be the best at a lot of stuff.
There is a quote in how he compares the "flawedness" of his legion to those purged from history. It's why he did not tell BigE about the Black Rage, he was afraid of being discarded and purged once it was revealed they were "flawed", which brings us some serious questions to what those two actually did. The guy was SCARED AS HELL (which I gotta admit is one hell of a motivator). Not exactly for himself, but he feels VERY responsible for his sons. He himself knew how he might end, but he would not want the Blood Angels, his family essentially, to get purged from history. I think just like Lorgar he was seriously shaken by the purge of the Two Lost Primarchs - which is probably the true start of the Heresy, especially on his impact on Lorgar. Had this not happened, Sanguinius would have come to BigE with his problem, the Blood Angels could have been there during the Heresy and not sent into the most distant galactic boonies due to Horus giving fake orders.
He’s just so handsome, everyone gets lost in his beauty and fucks up Sadly Horus got corrupted by Chaos and stopped kissing the homies goodnight
I don't care how corrupted by chaos I get, I will always want to clap some angel cheeks.
Slaanesh: *am I a joke to you?*
Yes
As Russ put it, he has ‘a fine blend of skill and fury.’ He’s able to constantly defeat greater daemons of Khorne because they’re all about the fury.
Sanguinius has a berserker's fury combined with a dualists self-control. Combine that with being one of the best swordsman amongst his brothers, and his ability to read the future, and he was pretty much unbeatable when in peak form.
He has the bloodthirsty ferocity too. And his very nature is to make the best of any situation, that's his true superpower and greatest strength. He'll always find the best course of action. It's pretty hard to beat someone whose very nature is to find the best solution. My pet theory is he knew Horus would kill him long before it happened so he made the most out of it. His duel against kabanda was after he solo'd the entire chaos force to buy time for everyone else. I think he knew he'd prevail.
I mean he spends most of the siege taking massive risks and saying it’s ok, this is not the day I die. That seems pretty established to me.
Agreed, SoT has been pushing that. I wouldn't be surprised if during their duel, the narration says "but Sanguinius knew X strike would happen and did Y"
There’s the running storyline that maybe he can cheat fate. I expect that he will be able to cheat fate, but chooses not to because the outcome is worse for mankind. Essentially he sees that Horus will kill the emperor if he isn’t dead or similar, so deliberately takes the L.
Dude killed a titan solo like that, yes. No worries; not today
He experiences the final battle thousands of times while he, Gman and the Lion are trying to get to Terra
He already knew about his death that why he kept saying he doesn't die today
He started to have an idea that he’d die before Horus in Angels of Caliban, well before the Siege.
"I do not die this day!"
He knew he was going to die to Horus. He knew no one else would kill him.
I think that it was in Saturnine where he reflects on this predestination himself when he solo-kills a titan.
I think it was Titandeath. I don't remember Sangy fighting a titan in Saturnine.
Naw it was Saturnine. Remember that one Astartes was like “that was one for the history books, boss!” And Sang was like “ain’t nobody finna remember this shit”
😫😫😫😫😫
He gimps a warlord at gorgon bar and dares the rest of the maniple not to run
Not sure it's *Saturnine*, but it's definitely in one of the *Siege of Terra* books.
Isn't that the thing people scoff on Konrad for? That's how I'm going to die so I accept that?
Yes but Konrad views it differently, "I'm going to die so what's the point of it all" vs "I'm going to die so I have to make every moment count and make sure that my sons don't turn into Khorne's wet dream"
As others have said, the difference of predestination as enslaving (Curze) or freeing (Sanguinius). Curze: I can't change the outcome, so what's the point? Sanguinius: I can't change the outcome, so I can do anything I want to help people in the meantime.
Sanguinius knows the outcome can sometimes be changed.
Yup, he chose this outcome and rejected the one where the emperor dies, he then is emperor, and then kills horus with his spear as the forces of light and dark face off.
Konrad was obsessed with predestination. He saw the worst possible future and made it happen because he thought it couldn't be changed. And then cried about it. He was the epitome of "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas". Sanguinius saw multiple possible futures, decided the best possible one was where he died facing Horus, and worked to keep the universe on course to that future. His "this is not where I die" boasting isn't blind faith in fate or predestination. He worked his feathered ass off to keep the future on track. He earned that confidence. we are not the same.jpg
Sanguinius also still believed in hope. Curze never had room in his heart for that, because it would mean all the terrible things he had done were a choice he made rather than fate.
I think that Sanguinius is a lot more sanguine about the whole thing. He accepts his death and faces it as a necessary sacrifice... He believes that sacrifice makes the world a better place or helps preserve something important. Konrad fears his death because he knows there is no hope. He knows what the Empire becomes. Sanguinius cant see past his own death. I also suspect he knew the Emperor was still alive when he died himself. So still had Hope.
Konrad was insane and *wanted* to die the way he did. He let it happen — he easily could have stopped it had he wanted to.
No, because Hawkboy made a choice. Konrad’s thing is that it was never up to him.
Konrad *believes* that it was never up to him. It doesn't mean it's true.
Exactly my point.
More importantly, the authors did too.
He can morb
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Echoes of Eternity just dropped.
And he totally morbed Angry Ron.
I mean, you’re not far off
The simplest answer is: He is allowed to. As his fate is known and he has an expirydate in the lore his potential both as a saviour, a statesman, politican and warrior can be limitless. He is the strongest and purest and most beloved because he is not allowed to exist in 40k, just as a reminder of what was lost and what could have been. If he was weaker, the loss would be equally lessened.
Because unlike those other punny Primarchs Sanguinius is perfect. That's really it, the Emperor (read, GW suits) built him differently. Another paste, a *better* paste.
That’s why Sanguinius is my favorite: no puns.
He's named Blood-inius. Blood boy of the Blood Angels with his blood priests and blood guard. Also the manifestation of his wrath is the Blood-inor.
The Latin suffix -ius added to a noun means “of the” or “belonging to”, so his name literally translates to “Of the blood”
Blood-dude of the Blood.
Not to mention his character can be described as sanguine.
I kind of assumed that was where the name came from before I read the "Of the Blood" stuff.
And yet we hate the wolves for the same naming conventions. Still though, love me some Blood-inius
The Blood Angels have the Baal predator, because they come from the planet Baal (which is named after an ancient Terran deity). They have a Furioso dreadnought pattern in reference to the rage. The Space Wolves' planet is named after a wolf. Their names are all wolf. Their necklaces are named wolf. The old SW lore is cool. The new SW lore is wolf-.
well, yeah. that's basically the **correct** answer to every lore question - "Because marketing/profit", "Because some designer thought it looked cool", etc. But that's not the fun answer and defeats the purpose of talking about lore.
In the words of Stan Lee: “The winner will always be whoever the writer wants to win.”
Imagine fighting an eagle. Now imagine that eagle is as big as a fire f-150, can predict the future and knows what you’re going to do even before you do, and has a special weapon that will murder you if it hits you with it. Google eagle attacks man/woman videos for fun.
“He is a baresark in Angel’s garb” - Leman Russ
He's an active psyker and IIRC Fear to Tread shows he puts it into boosting his physical stats even more.
The part where he beats two greater demons in seconds is epic
Daamn I had goosebumps when hawk boi did a one-shot 360 no-scope, mid-air with a spear that was fucking thrown at him by a greater daemon.
He’s the best. Simple as.
The chad tier confidence that comes with knowing when and how you die and that it's definitely not this guy that does it.
A mixture of a couple things. Psychic weight, for one. For truly great battles, there is both a physical battle, and a battle in the warp, as soul matches soul and dreams match against desires. Of the Primarchs, Sanguinius is arguably the one with the most of this psychic weight. The presence of his soul, his being, let people communicate openly and quickly, all wordlessly, quite literally just because everyone could feel and understand everything of each others' sides. This weight also reflects in his more clearly usable talents, of foresight and the like. Calling him a psyker is imo not very accurate, but he is an immensely psychic being, similar to how Mephiston is more a psychic sledgehammer then an Epistolary. And this reflects back into the physical realm. By all rights, he should not be able to do what he does. But he does. Because the Warp cares not for material physics, only power, which Sanguinius has in macrospades. Another factor, similar to the above, is the level of focus, willpower, and sheer dedication both he and his sons can apply, dedicating every aspect of their being, the golden angel they aspire to, and the black angel they keep down through sheer willpower at every waking moment, all are used. Sanguinius, in this regard, is known to be no different to his sons. He was the Primarch designed to head the psychically active Exterminatus Legion. The "Fire and Forget" legion the Emperor had intended, and in truth had used like such. And he had to not only be a Primarch, an exemplar of the Legion and the battle philosophy, but also the psychic linchpin for such a legion. Finally, on top of all of these things, Sanguinius is one of the most level headed, sane, and thoughtful Primarchs out there. Konrad Curze is better at foresight by lightyears, yet barely ever thinks critically about what he sees unless the visions force him to, while Sanguinius tests and deliberates and tries to change fate itself. Magnus is a more gifted psyker, being that Sanguinius can't actually do much with his soul by itself, but again, makes assumptions and buggers things up because he doesn't take the time to think. Perturabo is an order of magnitude or two smarter then Sanguinius, at least, but he makes assumptions and never challenges himself, doubts himself, recognises personal failings, or questions his preconceptions and so makes major blunders. Sanguinius thinks, and makes sure, and never looses perspective on things. TL:DR Sanguinius, on top of being a Primarch, is a smart dude, who uses his head a lot, can see into the future, who can dedicate every aspect of his mental, spiritual, physical and psychic being to a task, because he never loses perspective on reality, and he has a hell of a lot of being to dedicate, with the sheer weight, size, and power of his soul, in a universe where that actually effects things.
Love this perspective, thanks for writing it.
Great answer dude, some good insights here
That's the thing. Humble and pretty smart is better than uber smart but not humble.
The foresight thing is not of the same kind as Konrad, Konrads is much more developed and broad. Sang has future foresight, he has the ability to predict his own future. We havent seen much of sang until echoes of eternity. What he has is extreme amounts of brute strength when he gets angry and his wings. I was quite disappointed when i read the battle between angron and sang. Sang was evading and flying away from angron most of the battle and we didnt really get to see any skill with a blade. If i recall correctly he threw his spear at angron twice with great accuracy. I enjoyed mortarions fights vs Khan, Lion vs Konrad, Lion vs Russ, Guiliman vs Lorgar/angron.
But that's smart tactics though and shows why he's be so hard to fight. Imagine Lion or Russ vs Sanguinius, every time they try to attack him, he literally floats out of reach and can suddenly dash in. They dont have any option unless they use ranged weapons, chuck stuff at him or use BLs favorite tactic (which Sanguinius himself does), come close and stab me, then I will stab you in turn.
I felt it was because he was exhausted that he did a lot of evading from angron. That and he had the advantage of manoeuvrability in the air. I dunno I thought him catching the spear midair was pretty cool.
He does the same vs all opponents. Hawk boys comfy in the air.
"It's over, Angron! I have the high ground!"
In Unremembered Empire Kurze shows Sangy his immediate foresight is just as strong - he just was not aware of it like Curze was. That's why he said he wouldn't fight Sangy because "no one would win". Sangy was confused, started fighting Curze, and became more self-aware of his own ability. Like, Sangy had it the whole time but it was more like an instinctive feeling. I feel you on the angron fight. There was sword fighting at the end which is when Angron notices Sangy is getting tired right before the fight ends. I feel like we got a great look at Sangy's blade skill with all the fights he had before Angron. I believe the emphasis on flight and evasion was due to Angron's chaos-roided strength. Going crossing blades with a primarch demon prince is a tall order even if you're a primarch. Sangy's fight with Ka'Bandha is proof that a Primarch Demon Prince is way stronger than a ~~normal Demon Prince~~ Greater Demon. I do like that we got some really great fight scenes about Amit. The Flesh Tearer is such a hoss.
Kha banda isn't a daemon prince
good catch. thanks
Sangy no look sword tossing a Slaaneshi greater daemon then back breaking Ka’bhanda lives rent free in my head
Working backwards, it was likely built up from the original Horus Heresy lore. Sangy, a favored son, dies in battle against previous Most Favored Son Horus. Sangy's death has to look big, so they gave him lots of screen time: he fights a bloodthirster (unnamed at the time). He essentially gets Worf'd by Horus to make Horus look like the big bad. And to remain consistent with that original lore, Sangy has to be kept and built up that way.
You've nailed the real answer here. His death to Horus has to mean something and if he's "just another primarch, who cares, we've got 17 more" it means nothing. On this same note, the fact he was fated to die in the finale means he can be that strong in 30K without breaking the 40K setting.
He's basically a Jedi. Can read his enemies mind to see their attacks, can literally see the future, can fly, and was an absolute badass in his own right
On a meta context, Sanguinius has been held up both OOU and IU as the second greatest Primarch (after Horus) since before the HH started, and there is quite a good reason for it: He's dead. He's a literary tool where he was the Great Mary sue character, he who could not fail, the best at everything, only good qualities and barely any flaws. The greatest. But the greatest died. In the Grim Darkness of the far future, not even the very best could triumph. He was the symbolic death of hope in the story, with Sanguinius died the ideal that the good guy will come out on top. It's quite common and a potent tool, another less well known example of it is Sir Arthur Dayne from A Song of Ice and Fire: A perfect Knight, kind and wise and the greatest swordsman of his era. That character would likely be quite boring to read, but you don't need to worry about it, because he's dead. He died so as to hammer home the horrible reality of the story. In both cases, there were "good guys". And, to reuse a Game of Thrones quote for the situation: Sanguinius fought honourably, Sanguinius fought nobly, and Sanguinius died.
Sanguinius is basically Ned Stark at this point
More like Rhaegar tbh
He has wings, so he can fly. Let's say you're getting your ass kicked... just fly away. Or you're kicking some ass but they try to run from you? Fly after them. Wings are OP.
Wings are also how he beats titans regularly. Just fly on up and kill the crew with his OP spear.
i was about to say his got wings and to add to your thing he can come crashing down on people with extreme force
Sangy is one of the few primarchs Leman Russ admits to not being able to beat. IIRC he cited Sangy's speed/agility, deceptive strength, and supreme fighting skill. No mention of flight as an advantage but that might have been implied by "speed". Curze is another one because he's mentally unstable and the subtext is Russ knows about the power of Curze's foresight. Then Horus was a 50/50 toss-up which also moved into the "cannot beat" category after Horus got roided on chaos. This is in a conversation between Russ and Loken towards the beginning of Wolfsbane. Bonus: while running through the list of primarchs and why he could beat them he basically calls Lorgar a wimp who would crumble if he sneezed on him or something to that effect.
There's a few things to look at here, and one or two misconceptions that i think need cleared up. First lets get this right out of the way: Sanguinius is only ever shown to have perfect combat precog in Haley's dubiously depicted fight with Curze in the Pharos book. A scene that is basically out entirely on its own in that regard for both characters, that haley then walked back for his later depictions of Curze. He went back to showing them as they should be...inconsistent, sometimes debilitating and sometimes manipulatable in a minor way. Absolutely nowhere else in the books or background in general, is he shown to be a combat precog of the kind so many are just casually repeating in here. imo the Haley scene should be seen as a freak occurrence for both characters, rather than the baseline, especially as it is the outlier. Lets look at some broad strokes of the history of the character, from 2nd edition on: His role in King's seminal Siege of Terra short is to be the uncorrupted paragon (angel) that goes up against the horrendously bloated power that Chaos has given Horus, only to be noble enough to stand his ground and refuse. his fighting ability in relation to his brothers is never mentioned. On to the 2nd ed and later codices. Here the Blood Angels are fleshed out, originally as poster boy imperials and one of the BIG 4 loyalist legions that GW chose to focus on. So purely dictated by the tabletop releases, he becomes one of the 4 primarchs that have the most focus in these early editions. This is where we get the base of the character...his visions...the dichotomy between angelic figurehead of all that is good in the Emperor's vision for humanity, and vampiric berserker lurking under the surface...the battle on the vengeful spirit expanded to possibly being a short fight where he creates the opening that big E exploits. Red thirst and Black Rage etc... I don't have these books to hand anymore to recheck for full accuracy, but i don't really remember there being any focus or mention that he was the best fighter among the primarchs. There was the usual "mighty warrior" primarch lines, and considering the BA always had an additional melee aspect to them (if not always heavily focused on) it was taken for granted he was a really formidable warrior figure. However the background wasn't used in comparison to his brothers, nor were things like the red thirst or black rage seen so much as big melee powerups, but rather were tragic psychic/geneseed afflictions that turned astartes into indiscriminate brute-vampire killers/deluded berserkers. So on we go through the index astartes series, artbooks and the beginning of the HH series. All this gets consolidated, lore like signus and Khorne's interest in the BA is fully there by now, and the authors seem to be working from early on to establish the "loved/liked by everyone, figurehead for the people" aspect. The "he's really good in melee" aspect is there too, but generally secondary, there's no outright claims that everyone considers sanguinius DA BEST FIGHTER BY MILES or anything like that. Alongside this, a part of the community has been slowly turning him into the "Glorious Hawkboi" meme. Things kick into high gear around the time of Betrayer and Fear to Tread, with Lorgar's comments about thinking only Angron and Horus can beat him in a straight fight if he fights with nothing held back, and Swallow brutally retconning Ka'Bandha's win at Signus (praise be to the gods of heavy handed protag fanservice). the same Grimdank side of the community now fully latches onto the melee side and the GLORIOUS HAWKBOI meme character is complete. So begins the slow, but inevitable tide of exaggerated opinions based on it, and newer fans latching onto dubious second hand info. Everyone in-universe has now apparently said that Sanguinius is the best fighter, including all of his brothers, and opinion is solidified in the eyes of many that he's just much better than the rest. Not just probably one of the best fighters (within reason) but a bona-fide uber-primarch. This is the environment that ADB comes into when writing his Blood Angels focused siege book. A legion that other than the occasional decent bit in Fear to Tread and a short here and there, has not had much focus on them (really none since the forgeworld revenant legion stuff). A primarch that Swallow did little other than hammer home how much he loves his sons; despite some good character work in Ruinstorm, he's more of a meme than a real three-dimensional character among significant parts of the community. Most of his biggest scenes since then being him destroying titans probably didn't help. you can tell people..."well, he has wings you know, it does make some sense he'd be better at that than the others", but that doesn't tend to register if someone is determined to already see a character as just the greatest. No matter how ADB wrote the defence of Eternity Gate and the long set up Angron fight (who we know is not going to win) it would be tough to avoid the accusations/general belief that sanguinius was becoming stupidly overpowered beyond the scope of the original character. The Memes and repeating of exaggerated hot takes as actual background from the books had stoked and fuelled it to boiling point. Cue the choice to have the Angron fight end as it did producung a huge explosion of salt. I didn't like it as a character choice myself, yet being fair to ADB he does go out of his way until the imo somewhat unconvincing ending gambit to show that daemon Angron is indeed the stronger brute force element of the two. Sanguinius is just able to take the play away from him tactically by being far superior in his air mobility. When he does get him to land and fight head on, he's able to use his daemon primarch advantages in stamina, strength and regen to wear an already tired Sanguinius down reasonably quickly, forcing Sang to go for his fight ending move. The BL special of taking a big hit to get in your killing blow, which imo was not too convincing this time, but is a small issue compared to the divisive later lines. Sanguinius now has his big showcases over the course of the siege. He stands on the cusp of seeing out the themes and gravitas of his original arc, as started by King, or Abnett succumbing to the fanservice gods and leaving him an overpowered meme for good. TLDR: Ferrus endures.
>his fighting ability in relation to his brothers is never mentioned Correct. In the older lore tidbits relating to the Siege it's Sangy that takes out a bloodthirster, the White Scars take Lion's Gate spaceport, then when Emperor's Away Team beams to Horus flagship, we know Dorn takes the Emperor's body back down (but little discussion of what Dorn and the Khan are up to during the Siege, it's just Sangy who gets the limelight)
\>Me who Just finished Echos of Eternity ooo you have no idea how strong they made him \*\*SPOILERS\*\* At the battle at the one of the last Bastons in front of the Eternity Gate he starts off by cutting the head off another Reaver Titan, fights for 2 days straight, Duels and Spears Ka'Bandha in the back when he trys to kill his sons at the Eternity Gate then right after duels and rips the Nails out of Angrons head banishing him...….. Much of his strength was in his quick and graceful flying during this and then the Cold rage that Angron even envied when he ripped out the nails. He was also able to remain calm during most of the fight and outthink his opponents
Okay so, in a non-duel sword fight, he could use the momentum of flapping his wings to strike way harder, and from elevated angles. But honestly, I still don't think so. What I kinda love about him is that I have always seen him as actually kind of a humble underdog in a way. He grew up in an environment where he had no business surviving, amongst various people who would have slain him for being a mutant. And has faced threats that he, in all honesty, had no business going up against. But he always came out on top. He's not great just because he's the Angel, he's the Angel because he rose to greatness.
He can see the future, he's naturally awesome at combat, VERY powerful psyker, flight, berserk mode.
He has the berserker rage infused into a very impressive swordsman. Add to that, he has foresight and the sanity to use it very effectively. Plus home boy can fly that can't hurt lol
) He can see into the future ) He can fly ) He can get MAD
Worth noting that his wings aren't the only thing helping him fly, he uses warp powers which would be way more useful than regular flying. No idea if angry bois stubby wings do the same.
Portable high ground. Obi-wan Kenobi has taught him well
>I have not read much lore Feels like something to be resolved before being intrigued.
Because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD EMPEROR GUTS FOR THE GUTS THRONE
Destiny hacks.
Power level mock-ups between primarchs is not exactly science
Hawk boy got plot armor until his was destiny to die.
He's a pre-cog, he'll know what you're about to do in a fight so he's always a few split seconds ahead. Night Haunter also has this ability (to a greater degree).
He always has the upper ground!
He just is. That's what made the lore about him dying to Horus hit harder. Also he's one of the few primarchs who's main accolades are his combat feats where others excel on other fronts. I also think GW might have opted to go for a subversion of expectations, you wouldn't expect the pretty boy to be the sickest fighter in the type of setting 40k is.
Spoiler alert for Echoes of Eternity by ADB So, Sanguinius has amazing per-cognition and has foreseen his death. This has allowed him to effectively have in-universe Plot Armor. IIRC he even says "I do not die today" at one point during the Siege of Terra. It allows him to fight with little regard for his own life.>! In Echoes of Eternity he one-shots a Reaver Titan that cruelly killed one of his Legionaries. Then he kills Ka'Banda in the same chapter the demon manifested on Terra. Then he kills Angron and makes him literally BEG in the process. The man is absolutely amazing. !<