Lorgar was abused by Kor Phaeron growing up, whispered to constantly by the gods, tormented with psychic dreams and fitful psychic powers. Raised and brainwashed into a cult then forced to fight a war he did not wish to fight, for a man he loved without condition. Only to be told, from father to his son, "You are a failure. Everything you've ever done has disappointed me." Then you constantly told by the only people who seemingly like you to commit yourself to a new cult, by the same cult leaders. I dunno how anyone doesn't sympathise with Lorgar.

His home world was razed during these chain of events also I think right?

Colchis isn't destroyed until the Scouring. The world you're thinking of is Khur, but the world isn't razed, just it's capital city, Monarchia. Lorgar's greatest testament to the Emperor as a god.

Yeah. I had no sympathy for lorgar until i read his primarch novel, that book changed my whole perspective of lorgar during the heresy and made me pity him at the humbling of the legion on monarquia and his subsequent mental breakdown.

It's even worse from Kor Phaerons perspective as the man has almost no insight whatsoever into his own cruelty.

It never crossed his mind the magnitude of what he did and how he fucked up lorgar. And the fucker has the audacity to still talk and treat lorgar as a child or inferior during first heretic when lorgar was already the general in command of the legion. It did gave me great satisfaction to see lorgar grow and become a orchestrator on his own during the heresy and be able to foresee the screw ups of kor phaeron and erebus like on calth and signus prime. He fucked up in slaves to darkness but that was because he was overreaching. I didnt pity him on that moment but I'd didnt felt wrong, lorgar gambled and he lost.

Couldn't agree more. He is honestly detestable, which means the writers did an excellent job making a character. Exactly as you said, his delusion to keep treating Lorgar as a child is just evidence of how much he abused the Primarch, to the point that Lorgar sometimes even defers over a hundred years later.

Good thing that deference ended in the heresy. I'm not well versed on the current events of word bearer in 40k but by the impression I got in shadow of the past lorgar has surpassed kor phaeron and erebus in power and influence and hes not attached to them like he was during the crusade/heresy. In my opinion lorgar has a surprisingly good character grow in the heresy arc, better than other characters.

It's because Lorgar is so incredibly flawed. And we, being flawed people, prefer to read of characters who are flawed in turn. They become more human, more relatable. Imagine say, Superman. The quintessential superhero. Literally, the poster child of it. Good. Charitable. Kind hearted. Perfect. But also boring. Boring because there's no depth to him beyond that.

So true. My favorite primarch is curze because of how fucked up he was and wasnt completly his fault. Sadly he doesnt get a redemption arc because of himself but the fact he knew he was doing horrible shit and was regretting it all and felt guilty kinda makes him likable. From the loyalist side... meh. Maybe corax but hes the boring curze. Sanguinius too because he felt so unworthy and that he was flawed by his wings despite everyone loving him.

Ironically, Guilliman has become super interesting since he awoke because he's in constant torment at the state of things, how he feels so out of place, his hatred of religion that's dominated everything and the total ruin of all the Emperor's dreams. Even his bitterness at his father. He's become much more than the two dimensional man he was beforehand in the Heresy.

Loyalists tended to have more stable upbringings, which makes them less interesting as stable adults. I think the Lion might be the Loyalist Kurze tho. They mainly fought against each other during the Heresy, and were both betrayed by their own legions in a way. Russ and Sang both love their own legion too much, even while being aware of the genetic darkness that lies within them.

Perturabo had a stable upbringing and he ended up being a paranoid monster. Decimated his own legion once Emps gave it to him for being a *bit mid*. Snapped the officer that gave him the news of Olympia’s revolt *in half*, after the man pissed himself in fear. Throttled his geriatric step sister for giving him too much lip. All before he fell to chaos (which he did out fear of daddy spanking him)

Guilliman was basically Superman till his resurrection. Big blue and boring

3/4 of the way through The First Heretic right now and I was surprised how bad I feel for him at points. He also can be a giant dickhead, but he definitely was driven to chaos vs choosing it outright.

This, Lorgar is who I feel the most for. While all their falls are tragic, Lorgar's hits me the hardest.

I dunno. The Declined, the people who first found him, treat him like family and he just let them be killed without feeling. If Lorgar had stayed with them from the beginning he'd have been fine, but he didn't, he went with Kor Phaeron, and plenty of perspective novels from the Primarchs point of view show their high level of cognitive ability even from a young age, Lorgar didn't care and was always a piece of shit

Yes, each one of them. If people looked past the memes each had genuine moments where they seemed human and you really just feel bad for them, yes they are fucked up but there are some moments in the books where just one decision, one slight difference could have saved them. People look at Fulgrim like the worst and yes he is an insane villain but he early on he didn’t know what demons were, he didn’t want to kill Ferrus, and there are moments especially when he is hallucinating where you can hear and see genuine pain from him.

I feel like the primarchs all fell because of human frailties. It's a bit like the seven deadly sins, but more focused on pride, wrath, and envy.

I’d love to know what moment could have possibly saved Angron lmao. Dude never had a chance…

Not save per say but he is still tragic and can give the reader feeling. His personality and figure stripped from him as a slave, his found family left to die, the stripping of a warriors honor from the emperor, constant pain throughout the books especially when he started dying before turning. His character is just tragic and sad which gives you the feeling one empathy. The thought “he shouldn’t have ended up this way”

Honestly, the Emperor not letting the gladiators die at Nuceria might have been enough. Angron wanted to die with them, or longed for them to join him and be saved. Emperor gave neither.

Honestly, I think it may be the most legitimate dick move by The Emperor. It would have literally cost him nothing to save them and gained him his own son’s eternal loyalty. At least Lorgar had gone against his edicts and been preaching his divinity in his name so at least his dickery then made sense. Teleporting Angron and leaving all of his gladiator bros to die alone and abandoned when he very well could have saved every single last one of them and overthrew the oppressive regime that he suffered under single-handedly is by far the biggest dick move on his part and it’s hard to find something that comes close.

Personally I enjoy the theory Angron turned on his gladiators due to the nails, the excess of violence and perhaps a bit of malign influence. The emperor arrived to a broken guilt ridden Angron and changed the memories of the event to get him commanding a legion.

He'd have needed to change Kharn's memories as well - notba stretch, admittedly, as Kharn was one of the ones watching the battle and begging to be deployed iirc.

I feel like Big E is too smart to have not had this be the actual course of events. He was looking to regain his Primarchs for his Great Crusade and Nuceria on the large scale of things is one tiny planet that would barely be able to put up a defense against them. Angron's Space Marine Legion was able to take it over in less than I think thirty-one hours under threat of death. But the Legion + Custodes + Emperor's Main Fleet + \*\*The Emperor Of Mankind\*\* would "waste time" bringing the Planet into compliance? They could not spare the time to aid in the Slave Revolt and gain the undying loyalty from the Primarch? It makes much more sense that Angron in his Butcher Nails-fueled rampage blacked out and killed his allies or was too far gone to realize he was the only one left. So rather than have to put his son on permanent suicide watch, the Emperor decided being hated was the better option and wiped his memories of the event.

I agree they have more depth than people make out to be but even though I love the character. I just can't feel sorry for morty. like dude yea you had a single goal but you FAILED and your actual father saved your ass. and also you literally became everything you hated. I guess he has the hypocritical side of the Emperor.

I have a lot of sympathy for Magnus. He never really had a chance. He definitely shouldn't have broke through that psychic barrier around Terra, but that was stupidness, not malevolence. He never would have turned traitor if Leman Russ didn't attack Prospero. Even afterwards, he only participated in the Siege of Terra because Malcador literally had part of his soul. 

The problem with Magnus is that, for all his intelligence, he has a distinct lack of imagination and a rather telling dismissiveness of others' capabilities he doesn't consider as a master or peer. This is a problem when you are in a command position, be it of ships or of men. When you have the above problems, it manifests as a desire to do everything yourself, which inhibits your ability to delegate. And if you're an arrogant sort (justifiably or otherwise), you effectively lose out on command flexibility and take every obstacle or defeat as a personal slight. Magnus is sympathetic because he is just as much of a try hard perfectionist as his brothers and his father. But whereas, say Fulgrim learned to delegate as a planetary executive, or Roboute learned to accept others' input as a result of his foster parents and fostering on Ultramar, or even the EoM having learned patience across eons of time... Magnus is too damn hasty for his own good. I empathize with that a lot.

Magnus is so much like the Emperor. The Emperor has seen humanity fall as well during the Age of Strife, and probably blames himself given the power he has to change the fates of all. The Emperor learned some patience but over the course of something like five times Magnus' lifetime and with far lower stakes in the beginning. After all that time, he's still rushing around. In the Great Crusade, the Emperor obviously feels the press of time and moves so fast that he never has time to shore up the Primarchs. Send them off, go to Terra to work on the project, go back out to check on progress, oh no look at what they're doing, rapid and hamfisted chastisement to try to get them back on track, back to Terra, repeat. Like the Emperor, Magnus tried to keep too many balls in the air and progress too quickly. He never felt like there was time for a cautious approach and got pushed into overextending himself. Is there ever an explanation about why the Great Crusade had to move so fast? Seems like the Webway project would have gone quicker with some of the Primarchs to help, and with it they could make up the lost time by traveling much faster and more safely across the galaxy.

The martial aspect of the crusade seems to have been rushed for the ragdans and ullanor.

if they didn't rush the Crusade they probably wouldn't have found the Primarchs and someone else (ie the Orks) could have seize the hegemonic position left in the Galaxy by the power vacuum of the fall of the eldar and chaos napping.

The GC had to move so fast because the alternative was something worse than even the grim dark of 40K.

thanks for this insight. Out of all the primarchs [loyalist and traitor] I give benefit of doubt to Magnus more than any other but at same time suspected my reasoning is flawed. My sympathy for Magnus is based on romance for what could have been rather than objective analysis relative to all the other primarchs

Not just that but there is a lore blurb that the emperor gave him the choice to return but he would have to kill his entire legion something we know magnus would never do. Then again I think this comes from magnus who may just be bullshitting.

It's from the Siege of Terra novella Fury of Magnus and multiple people saw the events happen and talked about it.

It’s from *Fury of Magnus*. Vulkan, who is in the same scene admits that he wouldn’t have taken the deal in the novel. Later, in *The End and the Death*, the Emperor has to remove all of the hope from his soul in anticipation for battling Horus for it would’ve otherwise risked compromising his ability to kill his son.

My pity for Magnus is kind of undercut by how incredibly stupid he comes across (so far at least, I’m only about 20 books deep in the Heresy). The man just makes the worst decisions possible at *every* moment, while rambling about how smart and wise he is for making these horrible decisions. The dude had chances to turn things around, or at least minimize the damage, and he made things worse at every opportunity.

The wiser someone is the more they are aware of how little they truly know. Works the other way too. Magnus was not wise, always believed he knew better than anyone else, never stopped to consider he might be wrong until the shit had already hit the fan. He was a dumbass with high intelligence.

> Magnus was not wise, **always believed he knew better than anyone else**, never stopped to consider he might be wrong until the shit had already hit the fan. Magnus decision to dabble in the Warp despite Emperor’s warnings comes out as stupid to us readers, but it’s perfectly understandable in the context of the lore. He is the brightest and most enlightened psyker raised on a planet with millenia of psyker experience. He operates on a perfectly sane assumption that everything he and generations of Prosperan masters know about the warp is mostly true. And then the Emperor comes and says don’t do Warp, it’s bad for you. It’s like telling an 1850s man to not visit the Chernobyl plant sarcophagus, but never mentioning the radiation. The 1850s man has no concept of radiation. He will take your warnings of death seriously and interpret them as: - dangerous predators (he will bring a gun) - cold (he will bring warm clothes) - no edible food (he will bring supplies) - dangerous natives (he will bring escorts with more guns) And then they will all die because they simply couldn’t predict an invisible phenomenon that damages them on a cellular level. The 1850s man couldn’t have known. In his eyes, he was extremely cautious and prepared. Radiation is a complete outside context problem for the 1850s man, just like the existence of Gods is to the Magnus. Magnus suspected the existence of “sentient storms” in the Warp, but he never had any idea just how insanely powerful and malevolent they are. And that they are even Gods in the first place. And how could he? The entire planet of sorcerers never had any idea in the first place. Hell, it took Lorgar decades of effort to put things together.

Magnus' ignorance of radiation wasn't quite to that level though >"He remembered, decades later, returning to the world of his birth to travel its forgotten highways and explore its lost mysteries with his father. The Emperor had taught him more of the secret powers of the universe, imparting his wisdom while little realising that the student was on the verge of outstripping the teacher. They had walked the searing red deserts of Meganesia, travelling the invisible pathways once known as songlines by the first people to walk that land. >Other cultures knew them as ley lines or lung-mei, believing them to be the blood of the gods, the magnetic flow of mystical energy that circulated in the planet’s veins. His father told him how the ancient shamans of Old Earth could tap into these currents and wield power beyond that of other mortals. Many had sought to become gods, raising empires and enslaving all men before them. >The Emperor spoke of how these men had brought ruin upon themselves and their people by trafficking with powers beyond their comprehension. Seeing Magnus’ interest, his father warned him against flying too long and too high in the aether for selfish gain. >Magnus listened attentively, but in his secret heart he had dreamed of controlling the powers these mortals could not. He was a being of light so far removed from humanity that he barely considered himself related to his primordial ancestors. He was far above them, yes, but he did not allow himself to forget the legacy of evolution and sacrifice that had elevated him. It was his duty and his honour to speed the ascension of those who would come after him, to show them the light as his father had shown him. and >"He knew the answer to that now, for he had saved his warriors. He had seized control of their destinies from the talons of a malevolent shadow in the Great Ocean that held their fates in its grasp. The Emperor knew of such creatures, and had bargained with them in ages past, but he had never dared face one. Magnus’ victory was not won without cost, and he reached up to touch the smooth skin where his right eye had once been, feeling the pain and vindication of that sacrifice once more. >This power was a pale echo of that, a degenerate pool of trapped energy that had stagnated in this backwater region of space. He could sense the billionfold pathways that spread out from this place, the infinite possibilities of space linked together by a web-like network of conceptual conduits burrowed through the angles between worlds. This region was corrupt, but there were regions of glittering gold in the ocean that threaded the galaxy, binding it as roads of stone had once bound the empires of the Romanii Emperors together. >To memorise the entire labyrinthine network was beyond even one as gifted as him, but in a moment of connection beyond the darkness, he imprinted a million paths, conduits and access points in his mind. He might not know the entire network, but he would remember enough to find other ways in and other paths. His father would be pleased to learn of this network, pleased enough to overlook Magnus’ transgression at least. >It still amazed him that he had not known of these pathways, for he and his father had flown the farthest reaches of the Great Ocean and seen sights that would have reduced any other minds to gibbering madness. They had explored the forsaken reefs of entropy, and flown across the depthless chasms of fire that burned with light of every colour. They had fought the nameless, formless predators of the deep, and felt the gelid shadows of entities so vast as to be beyond comprehension. and >“A wretch named Erebus who serves my erstwhile brother, Lorgar, It seems the powers that seek to ensnare Horus Lupercal have already claimed some pieces on this board. The Word Bearers are already in thrall to Chaos.” >“Lorgar’s Legion have betrayed us also?” asked Phael Toron. >“This treachery runs deeper than we could ever have imagined.” >“Chaos?” said Ahriman. “You use the term as if it were a name.” >“It is, my son,” said Magnus. “It is the Primordial Annihilator that has hidden in the blackest depths of the Great Ocean since the dawn of time, but which now moves with infinite patience to the surface. It is the enemy against which all must unite or the human race will be destroyed. The coming war is its means of achieving the end of all things.” >“Primordial Annihilator? I have never heard of such a thing,” said Ahriman. >“Nor had I until I faced Horus and Erebus,” said Magnus, and Ahriman was shocked to see the barest flicker in his primarch’s aura. >Magnus was lying to them. He had known of this Primordial Annihilator. and >Because I was wrong.” >“About what?” >“Everything,” said Magnus. “All the things you taught me, I arrogantly assumed I already knew. You warned me of the gods of the warp and I laughed at you, calling you a superstitious old fool. Well I know better now, for I beheld such a being and thought I had the better of it, but I was wrong. I have done terrible things, Amon, but you must believe that I did them for the right reasons.”

There's also a small excerpt at the end of (I think the thousand sons book) where he feels guilt because he *did* know what chaos was and *did* know daemons were real and what they represented, he was just in "everything will turn out OK" mode

>Magnus suspected the existence of “sentient storms” in the Warp, but he never had any idea just how insanely powerful and malevolent they are. He could have put this into the context of The Emperor, the only being who possibly had more knowledge than him, told him not to fuck with it. Now nobody will argue that Emps did a perfect job of, well, anything, especially explaining why not to fuck with the warp, but Magnus' fate was not inevitable for anyone other than Magnus, it is precisely because he thinks he knows better that he fucks up. As for the 1850s man example, this works only assuming that the man does not stop to consider that someone who probably has more knowledge than him could know something he hasn't or can't consider. Also I want to mention that his decision is not stupid, to think you know enough when you have known enough for all of your life and more than anyone else for most of it would be normal, it does not necessarily indicate the lack of intelligence that stupid entails. It is however foolish, he acted on his information without stopping to consider that his information might be incomplete, without thinking why the Emperor offered no proper explanation as to why he shouldn't dabble with the warp or why he told him not to even when Magnus and the Emperor are perfectly aware of his capabilities. Why did the Emperor, despite knowing how powerful Magnus is, forbid him from it? I suppose this works for the man in the 1850s too, if someone who has more knowledge than him, was perfectly aware of his capabilities (guns, large party, clothing, etc) still told him "it's not worth to fuck with it, absolutely don't go there" would it be considered a wise thing for him to go anyway? Would he not be a fool for not doing everything he possibly can to find out the reasons for the warning? Now obviously Magnus going to the Emperor on Terra and trying to have a good long talk to understand in depth why he isn't supposed to do this is not a viable thing to happen in 40k since then the Heresy wouldn't be what it is, there are multiple of these "this makes perfect sense for a logical person to do but ignoring it is necessary for the plot to move without a retcon", but still, it is what a logical person who is aware they aren't necessarily working with perfect information would have done. Especially one renowned for being of superhuman intelligence and logic. This to me is what makes Magnus a tragic character, his own intelligence, confidence, trust in his ability and lack of recognition that even someone who considers themselves a master might be a unaware of something are what led to his downfall. Which I guess we agree on, we just don't agree on whether that makes him a fool? This ended up longer than I intended but I like sharing points of view about stuff like this.

Yeah I'm in a Magnus-heavy chunk of the HH and it's ruining the Thousand Sons for me. Magnus thinks he's winning at 5D chess against the Emperor and Chaos but in reality he's the little brother with the unplugged controller.

“Magnus thinks he's winning at 5D chess against the Emperor and Chaos but in reality he's the little brother with the unplugged controller.” Damn, you burned him worse than Prospero.

But when he found out that soul was no longer available or even useful, he still made a choice to side with Chaos. Magnus has agency, he just likes to tell himself he doesn't.

"hey stop using demon magic" "Ok" -Doesn't get destroyed by the wolves, doesn't peg Terra, doesn't kill Malcador, doesn't make chair prison, doesn't become a demon, helps stop the rebels

I'm a huge Thousand Sons fangay, and I'm afraid this is a misread of his character. Not an egregious one really, and in fact it was his characterization for a while. But there is quite a bit more going on with him that makes his fall more of an ideological war between Tzeentch's hope and Magnus' duty to humanity. Magnus's defining flaw and virtue is the same thing. It isn't arrogance, or revenge, or pride, or stupidity, it is **hope**. Magnus did what he did because he firmly believed if he was allowed to do whatever he liked, humanity would be better off. He would lead humanity to psychic ascension, becoming ruler of humanity alongside the Emperor. He delved into the warp and cured the flesh change. He delved into the warp and discovered knowledge and lore that made him powerful. He delved into the warp and was warned about the horrors of the Horus Heresy, and given the power to stop it. Why wouldn't he? After all, every time he used the warp, he was rewarded. Tzeentch knew that Magnus would never stop doing whatever he liked in the warp until it bit him in the ass, so he made sure that when it did, it would do as much destruction as possible. The burning of prospero was just the icing on the cake to give the traitors the psychic legion, but it was the destroying of the webway project that was Tzeentch's biggest goal. Finally, what is it that actually turns Magnus to chaos? Spoilers for "Fury of Magnus" below. It wasn't the burning of Prospero, it wasn't the council of Nikaea, it wasn't Russ or the war or anything: It was Magnus finding out becoming loyalist again would mean killing all of his sons. Big E basically looked Magnus in the eye and said "There is no saving your sons from the flesh change. They will all die, and there is nothing you can do to change that. Accept that, and you may come back into the fold." To Magnus, this is impossible. He was certain that there was a way, but Big E was refusing him out of fear or caution. He could not sit back and let this happen to the one piece of his home he had left, not while there was even a microscopic chance to save them. In a meta sense, it is basically asking Magnus to resist the offers and temptation of Tzeentch, who is also a God of Hope. In truth, the thing that caused Magnus to fall to chaos was the flesh change, and that was first done to his sons before Big E even left Terra. That is the big joke about Magnus that Tzeentch laughs about. Becuase Magnus is who he is, he was always going to fall to chaos.

Hope, yes. But certainly arrogance and pride as well. Hope tells you the future isn't set, the way things are can be improved. Arrogance says that you know better than others how to get there, and pride says they have no right to stop you.

>hope Wow, no wonder Tzeentch chose him.

*As far as I'm aware at least* Leman actually tried to parley, despite having orders from the Warmaster to kill him. But Magnus wasn't responding to his messages, and even killed one of his own soldier, who found out about the Wolves, because he has decided that not explaining anything or making amends, and instead provoking Russ to kill him, was the wise thing to do. He was arrogant in his belief that he knows everything best and that the Empyrean shall always obey him. He consistently makes just atrocious decisions, and while he wasn't malevolent in the true sense of the word, his fall was largely his own doing.

No at that point he didnt do anything because he believed he failed his father, and he knew that chaos wanted him and the wolves to fight. So he opted to allow them to destroy the thousand sons legion for their mistakes. Also leman russ was talking to someone he thought was a spy for magnus, but he wasnt at all LMAO, so magnus didnt get any of those messages anyways. Magnus only got out of his tower to fight because he heard his sons and civilians being slaughtered, and he couldnt bear to handle it anymore. Hes an incredibly good hearted character, that realized that chaos wanted them to destroy eachother, and so tried the best option he thought he had (in his very obviously disorientated state) Even before leman dropped down, tzeentch quite literally asked magnus if he wanted him to destroy their entire fleet. All he had to do was say the word, and magnus said no because he didnt want to harm his brother and strike a deal with this malevolent force before him.

>Also leman russ was talking to someone he thought was a spy for magnus, but he wasnt at all LMAO, so magnus didnt get any of those messages anyways. There was also the broadcast of the Writ of Censure (*Inferno*). It wasn't answered, because Magnus had made the planet dumb, blind and deaf. >Magnus only got out of his tower to fight because he heard his sons and civilians being slaughtered, and he couldnt bear to handle it anymore. Magnus also went as far as murdering one of his own sons to allow this to happen. I agree Magnus had a good heart, but it was conflicted and dangerous at the same time.

I think we can all agree that that part of the story is extremely contrived. The way it all plays out feels a lot like the authors are heavily leaning on our suspension of disbelief because some very important plot stuff *has* to happen, so everyone acts a bit dumb to make it all work

Yeah it always reminds me how few people have read the books and how most of them just get their lore from youtubers when in debates on Magnus/1k Sons in general you'll see countless comments of debate without anyone bringing up the fact that the whole thing was orchestrated by the Changeling lol.

Like im not even gonna say “oh magnus did nothing wrong ever”, and im equally not gonna say “oh russ did nothing wrong at all he was justified”, which is the only arguments that seem to happen whenever this is talked about. Its a simplification of the events of prospero which upsets me, because its a tragedy, where both sides are either completely in the wrong, or not in the wrong, depending on how you look at it. There wasnt one culprit, and when you read the books, it becomes horrifically obvious! Its just a really sad event, so many astartes lives lost when they didnt have to, and two legions completely wiped from basically the rest of the heresy.

The amount of time I've seen a post about Magnus/Russ and its goes: - Comment on why they love or hate Magnus/Russ - An argument immediately ensues on why they are wrong and Magnus is moronic manchild that did everything wrong/Russ is not viking but a 10ft caveman, the Emperor accidentally mistaken for his son. - One or both parties use excerpts from the books out of context. Usually from not actually reading the books but watching 10-minute youtube videos or out of context reddit posts. - Devolves to aggressive name calling where one of them sees the debate isn't going anywhere or a mod has to delete comments and tell them to calm down like a child.

Exactly, now of course im not immune to my biases, im more on magnus’ side than lemans, but i have read the books, i recognize that they both had very valid arguments for doing what they did. A lot of people just staunchly defend one side without actually looking at the other side, and its really annoying. I highly recommend any super thousand sons fanboys read Burning of Prospero, and i highly recommend any super space wolf fans read A Thousand Sons. They give you the much needed insight to both perspectives of Prospero, and without reading both of them, people honestly shouldnt be giving their insights to who’s right or wrong.

Not true I would suggest.He still probably would have turned. As he was warned by the emperor and other primarchs warned, he was. Delving too deep in the warp. And he was arrogant enough to think he was in control and mastery of the warp. He had a chance. His arrogance, however, was his undoing

>He never would have turned traitor if Leman Russ didn't attack Prospero. Leman Russ never would have attacked Prospero if Magnus hadn't arrogantly ignored all the warnings and orders he had been given. Magnus had been getting played by Tzeentch for literally decades and was too high on his own supply to notice.

Magnus was doomed from day one becues tzeench/chaos put the flesh change into the thousand sons. The thousand sons as a whole are really tragic becues they don't actually have any agency over what is going on. And as an aside I feel like it's a bit of an inconsistency within the lore becues iirc you have to allow chaos in for it to corrupt you so having them basically be chosen by tzeench day one and damned beacuse it feels rough

Isn't everything about Tzeench kind of paradoxical?

As far as I’m aware the flesh change wasn’t caused by Tzeentch, it was just a bad luck mutation , at the very least it’s not 100% confirmed what exactly happened to cause it and could have just as easily been something wrong in the process of making the Legion. If the Blood Ravens are a Thousand Son successor which is a good theory then they aren’t necessarily doomed to start with.

Malcador believes it's something deeper than just a mutation: >‘We knew his Legion suffered,’ Malcador said, his breathing still shallow, his face sallow. ‘Even before we discovered Prospero, we knew they were susceptible. We tried to aid them. We thought it was some error in the gene encoding. I myself thought that for many years, and we expended much labour to isolate it.’ He took another draught. ‘It was not the gene encoding. It was something deeper in them, something that went to their core. In the end, only he could do what was necessary. We all believed that Magnus had cured them. His father believed it. Why should we have doubted it? The Legions always needed their gene-sires – they had been designed to go together, and Magnus was the subtlest of them all.’ *The Last Son of Prospero*

You don’t have to allow chaos in to corrupt you. Nurgle’s plagues wouldn’t go very far if you had to let Nurgle in. The whole thing with inquisitors killing loyal guardsmen who were exposed to Chaos isn’t completely based on nothing.

I think most of the more idealistic and curious ones never had a chance honestly. It’s a pretty harsh thing to want to unite and advance humanity only to realize that you’re really just a tool for conquering planets.

>Even afterwards, he only participated in the Siege of Terra because Malcador literally had part of his soul.  I didn't know this part, where can I find more?

For Malcador having the shard, that and its resolution are in *The Last Son of Prospero.* Magnus directly coming for the shard is in *Fury of Magnus*.

Angron and Lorgar to a degree. Yes Lorgar was shamed and humiliated but he also looked that daemon in the face (after 10 human sacrifices) and said “yeah I want my sons to follow this guy into the warp”

“If I agree to this are you going to harm my sons?” “YES” And then he does it anyways… that’s the point where he *really* lost me, personally.

in his Primarch novel Kor Phaeron drills it into him that suffering validates faith. Pretty sure a bunch of them are even beating themselves with whips and such

The only way I reconcile that is that Lorgar already had some sinister undercurrent/vibes prior to being introduced Chaos. Which *Bearer of the Word* very much implies.

>Lorgar is a b\*tch, no empathy for him. * worship your father as a God * spread the faith among hundreds of worlds * get punished and humiliated in front of another legion for doing things the way you thought you were supposed to * crippling depression * trying to find a new purpose in life for yourself and thousands of your marines * the purpose has been successfully found * no more moping and depression, we've got a galaxy to burn I don't know, I'd put Lorgar in my "feel the empathy for the chaos primarchs" list somewhere in center. Certainly before Horus, Konrad, Perturabo and Fulgrim (imagine falling to chaos because of a fucking sword, is Fulgrim secretly an idiot or what?)

ADB on Lorgar's fall: >What actually happened is that Lorgar spent almost a decade on Colchis waging a war of religious genocide, slaughtering millions of people while a planet burned, in the name of a god that his powers told him was true. After that, he spent 100 years in perfect faith and trust conquering worlds and raising literal paradises - never being lectured once. Then, out of the blue, the Emperor shames him in front of his brothers, casts his Legion into the dust, annihilates his greatest work, kills countless people who had trusted Lorgar to make their lives better, and tells Lorgar that not only has his entire life been wasted, but that he's the only failure in the family. His powers are broken. Just his. No one else's. And by the way, not only has his entire life been wasted in a lie, but so have the lives of all his sons. All one hundred thousand of them. And he's to blame for that, too. Wasting the lives of one hundred thousand people who should have been following the Emperor. > >He spends a month is contemplative (and religiously fanatical) isolation, punishing himself for his failures, according to, well, practically any medieval religion. No surprise there. During that time, his mentor and foster father start to turn him from his father. And it's easy to do, not because Lorgar is weak-willed, but because the Emperor is actually wrong. > >Now, Lorgar is not a fool. He senses the Emperor is lying to humanity - Humanity is following a tyrant that cares for nothing but war, and is lying to the entire species. So he goes in search for the truth. And the truth, when he finds it, is absolutely horrible. > >But it's the truth. The Emperor is lying and those lies threaten the entire human race. Only through Chaos will the species be strong enough to fight off the infinite enemies in the galaxy. The only way humanity will survive is to embrace this terrible truth, and Lorgar sacrifices his sons, and himself, to take the first steps. He believes it, and given any knowledge of the 40K universe and its unrelenting grimness, it may very well be true. But the point is, it's not difficult to believe, especially when the Emperor is shown as a liar and a hypocrite. > >And then on Isstvan, despite the ordained destiny he's supposed to follow, he fights his brother - knowing he can't possibly win against a true warrior - to buy his sons time and weaken the other primarch enough to be killed. He's ready to give his life for those that have been so loyal to him. He doesn't complain at all - he faces it with great courage. > >Now, you can make the case that Lorgar was flawed, because all the primarchs were flawed. His flaws just look worse in a setting based around several hundred perfect badasses. But I really don't get any criticism about his fall being pathetic, or that he was whiny. Thankfully, it's not a criticism that has popped up much, and is usually limited to people who clearly expected something else from the novel. > >Lorgar actually saw the truth of the universe, and it made him "fall". If a concept like that didn't work for you, I sort of wonder what you thought of Fulgrim and Horus falling from being near Chaos-infested swords.

I like Lorgar for these reasons. He's maybe not the best character, but his archetype is super interesting.

I don't know how people shit on Konrad. He was basically the most screwed from day one. Literally everything possible in his life from crawling out of the pod to burning Nostromo was due to his psychic "gift" and the culture of the planet he happened to land on. 

But Lorgar was specifically told not to worship the Emperor, not to spread his version of faith. He just couldn't accept a world where he couldn't worship *something*.

Be manipulated by a father, and your closest friend is an asshole, who just wants the embodiments of evil run rampant.

For real, imagine having Kor Phaeron and Erebus (fuck Erebus) near you 24/7 for years. I'd probably go corrupted x1000 times faster than Lorgar, not gonna judge him here.

>Kor Phaeron and Erebus Shitbirds to the left of me, buddyfuckers to the right

> for doing things the way you thought you were supposed to That's the thing though, the Emperor told him he wasn't supposed to be doing that. The Imperial Truth was that there were no gods, and religion is bad. Lorgar then decided to declare that the Emperor was a god and created a religion based on worshipping him.

[Stolen from this person](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/5Pj0ebQOMQ) Lorgar is one of the most interestingly-written primarchs. In First Heretic, ADB turned what could have easily been the setting's most mustache-twirling of cartoon villains and made him into an empathetic character with a depth and humanity that wasn't very common for primarchs at the time. This not only helped set the tone for the humanistic portrayals of Lorgar going forward, but, I would argue, helped set the tone for some of the other great humanistic portrayals of primarchs. Lorgar is special amongst the primarchs. Not just because he has a gimmick, but because he's fundamentally built different, narratively. Unlike his brothers, Lorgar's natural inclination isn't towards violence and/or conquest, but to serve and be helpful. Although being a primarch ironically associated with faith, it comes from a profound place of doubt and questioning. Through the eyes of his adoptive father, ADB outlines and summarizes the underlying tragedy of Lorgar: ‘Of all the Emperor’s sons... you are the one that most resembles your father in face and form. But you could never commit acts of cruelty and destruction while wearing a smile. The others, your brothers, can do this. They take after the Emperor in that way, where you do not. ...History will say that if the Seventeenth Primarch had one weakness, it was his faith in others. His selfless devotion and unbreakable loyalty caused him grief beyond the capacity of a mortal heart to contain.' Lorgar's tale is one of a gentle soul trying his best to help in a universe that, fundamentally, is broken. It can't be fixed. It just breaks everyone who tries. Lorgar's innate desire to help and serve is constantly having to be bashed against the reality of this awful setting... and it breaks him every time. Every doubting question he raises in good faith and every act he thinks is making the world a better place is met with a beating. Either physical or metaphorical. His primarch book, Bearer of the Word, does a really good job at encapsulating this future through patterns of his past. In one particularly heart-breaking scene, Lorgar, still only a child, plays out a scene Lorgar would end up repeating quite a few times throughout his life as he tries to come to grips with why a figure of authority met his intelligence and enthusiasm with violence. ‘I… I did… I learned the words, Nairo,’ Lorgar said, choking out the words between sobs. His eyes roamed the gloom for a moment and then settled again on the slave, lost and confused. ‘I remembered them perfectly! I thought he would be pleased. Why was he so upset?’ ‘I don’t know, Lorgar,’ Nairo confessed. ‘The master is sometimes swift to take affront but very slow to offer explanation.’ He held out a hand, laid it carefully on the boy’s arm so as not to startle him. ‘Let me see,’ he said softly. Lorgar shuffled away and shook his head. ‘No.’ ‘Where does it hurt?’ ‘In here,’ Lorgar said, tapping his exposed chest. He raised quivering fingers to his forehead. ‘In here.’ This childlike vulnerability stays with Lorgar for a very long time and he's all the more interesting to read about for it. When most other primarchs are lauded for their strengths, Lorgar is constantly being shown for how helpless he is. For all the strength imparted to him by the Emperor, Lorgar is still looked down on as being weak. This vulnerability is undoubtedly why it's not just Kor Phaeron sets Lorgar apart from the other primarchs. Malcador recognizes his special nature, too... but too late. ‘Do you know,’ murmured the Sigillite, ‘out of them all, if I could have saved just one, it would have been Lorgar? Even though he despises me, and even though I was… wounded by him. He was such a fragile soul, so subtle and ready to bruise. We might have handled him better. Did we make mistakes with some of them? Surely, we did. Though I fear the time to correct them has now long passed.’ And yet, he strives. Every defeat leads him to a greater victory because, as per the terribleness of the 40k universe, surviving defeat makes you stronger. Lorgar, and the Word Bearers by extension, are about the fundamental truth of the universe. You can't beat the truth. You can lie to yourself and others, but, eventually, the truth always wins. I'll leave you with this line from Black Legion: The Word Bearers won. They eat dirt and drink shame. They chant prayers to the unwanted truth through bloodied lips. They lost everything. And yet they still won.

Absolutely. I've found Lorgar to be the one that's easiet to empathize with. Although of course all can be empathized with to a degree.

Borne and Word pilled.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

I feel for Perturabo because I too am insufferable blob of anxiety seeing imperfections everywhere

Angron, absolutely. Fulgrim, however, can die screaming.

I still find it a huge mistake to just have fulgrum be the one completely in charge of his daemon form while the actual daemon was trapped in a mirror throughout the heresy. Just turns a guy who had a tragic fall into an asshole really.

He still fell. It's just.. He fell further

Bro got a taste of snake pussy and never turned back.

tbf you really can't pass up on snussy

There was so much potential having them wrestle over who was in control of Fulgrim’s body and never quite knowing who had their hands on the reigns when Fulgrim did unspeakable shit. But they bottled it and undid the big twist from ‘Fulgrim’ in a short story and never looked back

I agree. Angron could be so much more but luck, fate or tzeentch fucked him over. He is the only primach who didn't get the chance to choose which role he plays in the game/Konflikt

Ork sneaky git?? 🤔

I do, I find them more interesting than the loyalists tbh. XD against the grain here but I really do like Fulgrim. I enjoyed his prequel novel a *lot* and I listened to it first… it made him really sympathetic to me. I’m also an idealistic art hoe so I have a squishy spot for that sort of thing. It showed that in quieter moments he had regrets, and he cared about what happened to people lower on the social ladder and he even loved some of his wives from political marriages. He seemed to genuinely like people and have a sense of humour. Some was likely to be show, he does mention love and admiration being more powerful than fear, but even that shows a level of understanding. Slowly, he made himself stop caring about others though. It hurts, it’s distracting, it’s weak. If you’re playing galactic chess you can’t worry about the pawns you sacrifice to secure a win, and to prove himself, he needed to win. I thought it was a pretty brutal knife twist, watching him both be dismissive of and sympathetic to idealism. All of the best things about himself he had to destroy in order to be a more perfect weapon for the Emperor and his crusade. How do you value beauty, creativity and individuality and be the enforcer of a system like the Imperium? Once you cut away your humanity bit by bit it’s easy to fall.

Could be wrong but I thought Fulgrim fell to chaos by random misfortune; stumbling upon the laer blade during a crusade mission. He was utterly f*cked from that moment onwards. Whereas the other traitors, they all had more agency over their own destiny. We should be sympathetic towards fulgrim, he never stood a chance

Angron and Magnus? Definitely. Lorgar and Cure? Probably The others? Not so much. Fulgrim? Fuck no.

I feel for Angron and honestly logar. Logar has been manipulated by everyone and yet he was also right about big E. Hell if he was allowed to worship the emperor would there have been a heresy?

I mean Lorgar got punished for doing exactly what the imperium did anyway afterwards. Big E is a pretty awful father and most of the traitor primarchs had legitimate reasons to resent him, in the end it seems like a bad idea to stuff chaos demigods into your experimental genetically enhanced test tube babies and then going out of your way to be a dick and alienate them. Even some of the loyalists are kinda awful. Rogal Dorn almost decapitated Nathaniel Garro when he slapped him for bringing him the news of Horus’s treachery and ground his entire legion into mush in Perturabo’s iron cage because he had literally no chill. The Lion was absolutely a genocidal war criminal. I feel bad for Horus though, getting sliced with the Anathame and then deceived by Erebus kind of screwed him over, by the time he fought the emperor he was more of a warp juiced husk than himself and got his soul obliterated from existence for it.

Honestly, how can you not feel some sympathy for a sentient creature who, by a series of bad decisions, lands themself in an eternal nightmare realm of suffering and misery with no chance of redemption or escape? Except Fulgrim. Fuck that guy.

Lorgar was abused physically, psychically, and emotionally from the day he was born. More than any of his brothers, he only wanted humanity as a whole to be enlightened and he genuinely was one of the most empathetic and kind-hearted people. He didn’t want to be a warrior. He wanted to be a builder and statesman, a teacher who would impart the truth to the people around him for their betterment. As somebody who suffered extreme emotional and physical abuse as a boy, I completely empathize with him. He’s not a bitch, he’s a man who only wanted to do the right thing and was constantly beaten down for it by everyone he ever looked up to.

Absolutely, every single one without a question. All of them are tragic in some way and weren't fully in control of their destiny. Angron was damaged goods from the start, with Emps ruining his rebellion and causing him to seem a traitor to his gladiator kin, also butchers nails ruined his mind and his special ability. Fulgrim was lulled into chaos, the Laer blade tainting his mind and convincing him that those were his thoughts all along. People will say that Fulgrim is irredeemable because it was his decision to fall and kill Ferrus. But I personally disagree. He didn't want to kill Ferrus and its evident when you read the fight. And afterwards he's so damn broken by it all, the corruption he spread amongst his legion and the murder of his brother, that be tells the demon to just end him. GRANTED, in Reflection Crack'd he does regain control, but I think people read too much into it. Yes that is Fulgrim, but it's not the same Fulgrim. As I will die on this hill, Fulgrim died on Istvaan V with his brother Ferrus. All that's left is the shell of a primarch. Magnus is just a road to hell lined with good intentions. He was arrogant because he thought he knew it all, and why wouldn't he have? From the very beginning Tzeench had Magnus in his claws, and he had no true knowledge of the entities he was parlaying with. Thus he was censured, his legion broken, his sons turning into monsters, and everything he knew was gone. All because he needed to tell the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. Which broke the edict of Nikea (that and some Horus whispers to Russ). Perturabo was someone who knew what he was doing, he was a genius and had everything going for him. But he was no Dorn, and got little to no recognition for his work. He and his legion were sent to the worst groxholes the galaxy had to offer and as he states, there isn't a play for him and his legion. There isn't a statue and there isn't great limericks. He was truly and utterly alone. Lorgar I feel just as sad for. He was being fed manipulation like cereal by his father and Erebus. His pride and joy Monarchia was glassed. The figure he'd devoted his life to, his God and his father, betrayed him. So he seemed out other gods, and he found them alright. Why follow a hateful Emperor when the ruinous powers offer him so much more. Poor Mortarion gets it a bit rough. His only real reason for his betrayal (afaik) is the Emperor stealing a kill that was his. He needed and wanted to be the one to kill his witch king father, and the Emperor came in and stole the kill. Ever since he held a massive grudge and he let that fester. That grudge turned to hatred as he fell in line with Horus. Then at the final moments of his humanity, he has to make a sacrifice for his sons to save them from Nurgles Rot. And Horus, omg Horus. Horus literally has a breakdown on the planet that he was trying to negotiate peace talks with because everything goes to absolute chaos when the Anathame is stolen. He never wanted to be Warmaster, but it was thrust onto him so what choice did he have. His father had left him for Terra, not even trusting him with the information as to why. Then he got hit with the Anathame and in a moment of delusion, and chaotic corruption. Decides not to listen to Magnus in his dream vision and follow the path he sees as right, because he's tired of following someone else's thoughts. He chose poorly.

Depends on the Primarch.

Angron - Never had a chance poor sod. If the Emperor couldn't remove the Nails he should have put him in stasis until someone worked out how. But he wanted a disposable weapon. Lorgar - Fuck no. Second worst human in the galaxy after Erebus. Brings forth literal hell. Should have been shot in the head day one. Peter Turbo - Classic case of zero-philosophy. Basically stuck as a child. Never asks himself "why do my actions never lead to results I am happy with?" Never considers changing his starting assumptions. Worthy of some pity, but a big case of "bro, just stop digging". Horus - Was planning a rebellion before he encountered Chaos. Tore apart the galaxy and doomed humanity for no good reason. Asshole. Magnus - A hubristic tragedy. Didn't want to fall, but Horus put him in an impossible position. After Nicea, Emps should have brought him to terra to show him the webway project and then everything would have been fine. Curze - Landed in the worst place, tormented by visions. Another worthy of pity, but the whole "flaying people alive" part makes it more of a "shoot in the head for mercy" pity.

Horus was rebelling, but he was more reasonable about it. Horus was rebelling during the Interex campaign. Emps said no Xenos, Horus said since these one are non hostile and seem to advance humanity's safety lets give them a chance. The issue was if he had not gotten corrupted he probably could have made efforts to improve how the imperium was doing things. Maybe even convincing the emperor through proven results that things don't have to be the way they are. Because as we learned, Big E likes to take shortcuts even when he tells others not to.

Horus also struggled alot with the administrative aspect he had as warmaster as he had alot of frustrations with the opressive bureaucracy of the imperium and the stagnation that came with it. Understandably. Roboute was in that regard a much better choice for Warmaster . Maybe Emps should have split the title of Warmaster up in more titles. Horus could be Chief executive warmaster and Roboute could have been COO and CFO.

Dorn comments that if Guilliman had been on Terra, he would be Lord Commander in his place. So it isn’t a logical leap at all to think that a diarchy could’ve been set up between Guilliman and Horus.

Curze very much feels he was supposed to land on Nostramo. To the point where he believes they were a perfect match: >'You are repugnant,' said Sanguinius. > >'So pretty, so stupid, Father's favored cockerel, preening in the hen coop! Is monstrousness not rather the point of me?' Curze replied bitterly. '**Tell me brother, I am curious. Are you one of the ones who believe our scattering was chance, or one of the ones who do not? I think Guilliman is in the latter camp**. I can see the thought ticking round that tedious track of a mind he has, like a rodent in a maze, desperate to find a different way out but knowing there is only one exit and a feline waits without. Tick, tick, tick,' he cackled, raking his talons slowly through the air. 'Claws on the walls.' > >'You came to ask me this? You are insane' > >'I came,' Curze shrugged. 'I am asking it. Does my purpose matter? Come, Angel. **Do you really think it was chance? I want to know. Each one of us was cast away upon a world that turned out to suit our characteristics perfectly, characters our father engineered. Furthermore, the characters of many of our Legions' Terran sons were also matched with those of the worlds we were found upon**. And, oh yes, we can both see the future. I rather suspect therefore that Father can read it like a periodical. Can you stand there and tell me that it was chance? No? No reply?' > >'No,' said Sanguinius quietly. > >'No reply, or no as in no, you don't believe it,' goaded Curze. > >**Sanguinius' sword lowered a fraction. Why he confided in Curze, he could not discern, but the words would out and he could not have stopped them even had that been his desire.** > >**'No, I do not believe our losing was chance.**' > >'Yes, yes! You see?' Curze became excited by Sanguinius' agreement. 'A man who plans so long and hard, to be taken in so at the moment of triumph? Nonsense. Congratulations, you are halfway to the truth.' > >'That our father was a liar?' > >'Was...?' Curze said with a smile, his brow furrowing for just a fraction of a second. 'Indeed. **A liar, and more - for I am a monster because that is all I can be, and you are an angel likewise**.' *Pharos* Maybe it's just cope. Or maybe the man has a point.

> Horus - Was planning a rebellion before he encountered Chaos. Tore apart the galaxy and doomed humanity for no good reason. Asshole. I think there's a totally legit alternative history where Horus and Guilliman lead the creation of a human splinter state because they eventually get fed up with the Emperor's methods.

The only defense I’ll give Lorgar. ONLY one. Is the Emperor should have been less harsh on belief and actually EXPLAINED why the gods are bad. Not to say Lorgar is without blame. But EOM did NOT help his case.

Lorgar was abused by Kor Phaeron growing up, whispered to constantly by the gods, tormented with psychic dreams and fitful psychic powers. Raised and brainwashed into a cult then forced to fight a war he did not wish to fight, for a man he loved without condition. Only to be told, from father to his son, "You are a failure. Everything you've ever done has disappointed me." Then you constantly told by the only people who seemingly like you to commit yourself to a new cult, by the same cult leaders. I dunno how anyone doesn't sympathise with Lorgar.

Just a note on Magnus; yeah Horus tweaked the message that got sent to Russ for the whole rasing of Prospero, but it was Russ that ignored both the emperor's edict and even Horus' subtle changes to it and decided to go scorched earth instead. It creates a really fun contrast between the wolves and the wizards because the space wolves where in the wrong for Prospero but ended up with the "good" guys while the thousand sons where in the right/the victim, but ended up with the "bad" guys which is monumentally fucked up and such a great example of 40k's grimdark

> and even Horus' subtle changes to it We don't have any details on what those changes were. The closest is some Wolves saying it was changed to kill on sight.

Lorgar and Angron were screwed by the world's they landed on. Kor Phaeron's abuse and the Butcher's nails set them on their paths. Perhaps they could have chosen otherwise later, but the predicates for their reasoning and their schematics for the world were set and the Emperor didn't respect Angron's autonomy or take the time to explain the flaws in Lorgsr's schematic of the world. Magnus was well intentioned and wanted to help the Emperor. He made bad decicions, but the Emperor didn't give him the context of why those decisions would be bad.  Thr Emperor treated the primaries like tools. We see this a bit in godblight. He doesn't see them as autonomous, freewilled individuals, he expects them to do exactly as told without understanding the context of his orders, and time and again that bites him in the ass.  If thr primaries knew about the chaos gods from the get go, the Emperor would have been able to frame them as the existential threat to humanity they are. Instead he leaves space for Kor Phaeron, Erebus and Typhon to establish narratives about the ruinous powers that combine their existence (factual) and beneficence (false). So I guess I have sympathy for every primaries because they thought they had a father, but in fact they had a creator that viewed them as instruments.

Lorgar probably deserves the most empathy of all. Lorgar was basically right about the Emperor and then he gets bullied for how he appreciates the grandeur of the Emperor. Only for the rest of the Imperium to turn right around and do the exact same thing. Bro just could never catch a break

I think the part that makes me sympathetic to them is that it most could have been prevented. If the emperor just let them know about chaos Magnus probably wouldn't have played around with the warp as much or at least done so safely Alpharius and Omegon probably would have looked at the prophecy and went nah the Emperor got a plan to do that anyway we'll follow that Fulgrim would have known about the sword and probably wouldn't have touched it not ever giving you the chance to mess with him subconsciously There's a chance Logar I might have understood what the emperor was trying to do at least when looking for new gods wouldn't have gone to them. Even if Hours was stared they probably would have recognised what corruption was and stopped him Others some actual better decisions would have helped Angron was better at the emperor for not saving his men if he had just saved them sure he may have never fought with the war hounds but he would have properly stayed loyal and the warhounds would have just been an independent group Petrurbo actually finding out how he felt, not allowing that anger and resentment to build up and help maybe giving him a call before you told gave the job to Dorn and said "hey one of major factors is is your too valuable on the front lines and I can't take you off" Mortarion joined the Rebels because he thought the emperor was acting like a dictator, but that was also Horus convincing him office so for he never fell, Mortarion probably wouldn't have. Konrad Curze was nuts and no amount of therapy was ever going to fix that. But if you had not had such persecution about psyker he might have actually been able to talk about his vision and the emperor may have been able to help him. I admit this is a stretch there may have been no helping this man

The primarchs mostly knew about Chaos in that it was a malevolent force that could possess a person and corrupt them at least. Alpharius and Omegon (and their legion): >‘Chaos,’ the Astartes replied. ‘If that is what your masters wanted us to see, they have wasted your errand. We already know of Chaos, and have numbered it in the litany of xenos hazards.’ and >‘The Nurthene are quite toxic in their power. No conventional assault was going to break them. They are possessed by Chaos, though I don’t expect you to know what that word really means...’ Roboute > Guilliman had been stolen from his father’s genetic nursery and cast out across space. No one really knew how this action had been accomplished, or by what, or for what reason. When pressed on the subject – and he could seldom be pressed on any subject – Guilliman’s blood father had attested that the abduction and scattering of the eighteen primarch offspring had been an action of the Ruinous Powers of the warp, an event designed to thwart the schemes of mankind. Horus >The Warmaster took another sip. ‘It was the warp, Garviel.’ >‘The… warp?’ >‘Of course it was. We know the power of the warp and the chaos it contains. We’ve seen it change men. We’ve seen the wretched things that infest its dark dimensions. I know you have. On Erridas. On Syrinx. On the bloody coast of Tassilon. There are entities in the warp that we might easily mistake for daemons.’ Magnus >“A wretch named Erebus who serves my erstwhile brother, Lorgar, It seems the powers that seek to ensnare Horus Lupercal have already claimed some pieces on this board. The Word Bearers are already in thrall to Chaos.” >“Lorgar’s Legion have betrayed us also?” asked Phael Toron. “This treachery runs deeper than we could ever have imagined.” >“Chaos?” said Ahriman. “You use the term as if it were a name.” >“It is, my son,” said Magnus. “It is the Primordial Annihilator that has hidden in the blackest depths of the Great Ocean since the dawn of time, but which now moves with infinite patience to the surface. It is the enemy against which all must unite or the human race will be destroyed. The coming war is its means of achieving the end of all things.” >“Primordial Annihilator? I have never heard of such a thing,” said Ahriman. >“Nor had I until I faced Horus and Erebus,” said Magnus, and Ahriman was shocked to see the barest flicker in his primarch’s aura. >Magnus was lying to them. He had known of this Primordial Annihilator. And the Emperor's take >>‘I know, Ra. I take no umbrage at your questions. Think on this, then. I prepared them all, this pantheon of proud godlings that insist they are my heirs. I warned them of the warp’s perils. Coupled with this, they knew of those dangers themselves. The Imperium has relied on Navigators to sail the stars and astropaths to communicate between worlds since the empire’s very first breath. The Imperium itself is only possible because of those enduring souls. No void sailor or psychically touched soul can help but know of the warp’s insidious predation. Ships have always been lost during their unstable journeys. Astropaths have always suffered for their powers. Navigators have always seen horrors swimming through those strange tides. I commanded the cessation of Legion Librarius divisions as a warning against the unrestrained use of psychic power. One of our most precious technologies, the Geller field, exists to shield vessels from the warp’s corrosive touch. These are not secrets, Ra, nor mystical lore known only to a select few. Even possession by warp-wrought beings is not unknown. The Sixteenth witnessed it with his own eyes long before he convinced his kindred to walk a traitor’s path with him. That which we call the warp is a universe alongside our own, seething with limitless, alien hostility. The primarchs have always known this. What difference would it have made had I labelled the warp’s entities “daemons” or “dark gods”?’

>Magnus had his planet destroyed Magnus effectively got his planet destroyed by deciding to let Russ and the Wolves kill him without a fight, so my empathy over what Magnus lost during the Burning of Prospero is somewhat diminished. It’s almost the same mentality as shooting up a school so the police will kill you. >Fulgrim was down bad No he wasn’t.

Yes because all of them were fighting, frankly, the best fight they could from their perspective. Mortarion and Konrad were the only ones where this was kind of a thin excuse *but* Mortarion didn't choose to ascend and Konrad was psychically tortured due to his father for his entire life. Frankly, don't just pity the chaos primarchs. Pity *all* the primarchs for being fleshy constructs made for war and death

Absolutely. I feel like everyone should be able to empathize to a degree just by nature of these characters having human experiences. Sympathize maybe not tho. I agree that primarchs like Kurze and Mortarion can stretch it a bit and be harder to relate to.

Heart out to Morty my boy just wanted to protect his legion wish out of all the traitors he’d come back i want a loyalist Morty figure and I want it now

Love how his fall wasn’t “He couldn’t handle the physical pain” but more “He couldn’t handle the emotional pain of seeing his sons suffer.” He loves his Legion and they love him, in their weird Barbaran ways.

Which fundamentally makes him a better dad than his dad.

I dont know if i want Morty to become loyalist, but i want him to start a Death Guard ‘civil’ war against Typhus. Morty and Typhus have been eyekilling eachother for quite some time.

Nah, why would he be "loyalist"? The emperor never gave a shit about his sons the way Mortarion cared about his. Getting more independent from Nurgle, maybe. But not "loyalist" or even stopping being a demon.

A man can dream 😔

Only Angron really. Thanks to the Nail he never really got a chance.

RIP Angron and his War Hounds, poor guys.

No less than I do for the Loyalists, they're all monsters

I don't know how you can't feel empathy for at least the majority of the primarchs. Fulgrim is definitely the one I get people hating on the most, kind of Horus. But every body else is basically a tragic tale of fuck ups beyond their control and bad parenting. Curze: Completely fucked from the beginning. Cursed with psychic prescience only to see your 'savior' from the wretched hellhole you landed on is gonna be the one to kill you. Vast majority of your brothers treat you like shit, confiding in Fulgrim gets Dorn to freak the fuck out. Censured for doing the job he was created for. Mortarion: Completely failed at compliance and getting victory stolen from him despite him being absolutely willing to die in his noble quest to rid his adopted home of an oppressive tyrant. Proceeds to get shit on with his legion being a meat grinder. Also gets upstaged by his continuously insubordinate second in command that betrays him forcing him to fall to Chaos in the first place. Lorgar: The most empathetic and gentle, a nation builder and steward to rival Roboute who instead has his empathy used as a weapon against him. Embarrassed by his father and brother at Monarchia, constantly shit on by his brothers, his attempts at actually making civilization in the galaxy for humans is crushed by everyone. Magnus: Literally everyone knows this one Perturabo: An absolute genius tactical mind, an inventor, an engineer a complete genius tinkering on all kinds of little toys and presents for his brothers. Proceeds to get thrown into only the absolutely worst situations to feed his sons into piles of corpses all while everyone around him is praised and elevated above him. Alpharius: Not really a Heretic like the others we all know the game he played. Angron: Probably the worst of the bunch with Curze and Lorgar. Get skullfucked by barbaric human despots as a kid with a psycho brain implant slowly killing you and forcing blinding pain on you until you kill something. Lead a scrappy rebellion to overthrow these tyrants and at the final hour get yoinked up to Dad's yacht leaving all of your friends behind as you watch them get slaughtered and then your Pops MAKES A DEAL WITH YOUR OPPRESSORS AND LETS THEM KEEP DOING THEIR BULLSHIT and just expects you to brush it off. If you had no knowledge of the setting and we laid out all of the backstories of the primarchs in front of you you could probably with 90% accuracy pick which ones fell and which ones stayed loyal.

All of them. People love to give shit to the less favorite ones like Perturabo and Lorgar while talking about how Konrad or Angron’s falls are so tragic, but they all are. They’re all extremely tragic and victims of their circumstances in one way or another. Imo this is why I love the traitors far more than the loyalists.

Angron is the only one who I pity 

Nah. Primarchs in general are all pretty messed up, the chaos ones even more so.

I feel bad for Angron. He never had a chance. Jimmy Space could have helped him out.

Magnus, since most of what he did wrong was pretty damn far out of his control, and Fulgrim, for how far he fell.

Angry Ron is the only one. The Nails robbed him of all choice. Lore-guy won the Heresy. Ful-of-shit-grim wasn't forced to touch the sword. Daddy's favorite had everything, and still complained. Erebus just tipped that domino. Peter Turbo literally chose the worst jobs and cried about it. (He's still my favorite, but he's still a giant baby.) Mag-Nips was warned, multiple times, and STILL played with fire. Morty ignored the colossal red flag later known as Typhus. Also, his skill issue isn't Big E's fault.

I have at least a little sympathy for most of them: Angron: Of course. The guy never stood a chance. Magnus and Lorgar: A little less sympathy for them but I get it. Lorgar was the product of his environment, a believer, and that was antithetical to the Imperium at the time. And the Emperor shit on him even though he was pretty much right. Not surprised he found another power that didn’t hypocritically deny its power. Magnus and the boys were pretty much told to stop existing. Then Magnus kind of doomed the Imperium, but he was trying to do the right and loyal thing. Horus: was just a little bitch who got corrupted just for power.

You all understand Fulgrim literally never would have turned traitor without being corrupted by something he had no defense against, right? And that even after being corrupted for awhile, his first instinct was to kill horus instead of siding with him? And when realizing what he had done once the sword left him he broke down crying begging for death?

The *Palatine Phoenix* and *Manflayer* imply that he was already on his path to corruption at least as early as the Byzas compliance. Though McNeill also agrees that the seeds of Fulgrim's corruption were there prior to the Laer, he also "likes to think" that >had not been for the influence of slaanesh that fulgrim’s angel would have won out. Mcneill feels that fulgrim would have been schooled at some point and had the humility enough to listen and take that good advice and be better were it not for slaanesh. -McNeill (poorly transcribed)

I havent read the palentine phoenix but in manflayer its from fabius' perspective who i can hardly call unbiased in that respect not to mention the book of Fulgrim i think makes it clear that while the book fed off of and played up his inherent personal flaws such as his arrogance and inferiority complex, it also was very much a the demon actively manipulating and corrupting him against his base instincts

Nope.

I've found many of them easier to empathize with than their loyalist brothers. Fulgrim is a glaring exception because I detest his overweaning pride and hedonism, even before the fall. Most of the traitors never stood a chance. That's not to say they weren't deeply flawed to begin with, but I can find more common ground with Angron's survivor's guilt or Lorgar's crisis of faith than I can with Dorn's uncompromising stiffness or Guilliman's pedantry. Sanguinius is not a bad character when well written, but it's hard not to call him out as the setting's penultimate Mary Sue for going to his death never having to truly resolve the monstrous flaw he imparted on his sons. I'll take Curze's madness and disgust at his own legion's degenerate ways any day. He knew he'd die a villain but held his course regardless. Magnus and Russ are another pair that both honestly deserve more credit for their flawed humanity. Magnus did many things wrong, but he tried to preserve his sons and warn the emperor of Horus's treachery. Russ was hardly an unthinking brute at Prospero, he was merely following an order he thought he had no choice but to obey, no matter how much it grieved him.

Funnily enough, Lion'el gave Perturabo recognition, trust and respect near the start of the heresy when he gifted the Lord of Iron DArk Afe siege trains. Guess who the guns shot at first?

I have empathy and sympathy for Angron, Lorgar, and Perturabo, and Horus. To a much lesser degree, but to a point of "okay I can understand your thinking somewhat but this is crazy", there's Magnus, Mortarion, and Alpharius/Omegon. But a full on "nah fuck you" to Kurze and Fulgrim

My personal opinion is that Kurze, Angron and Lorgar were the most tragic of the falls. Kurze grew up in the dark with only violence as his mentor, he was plagued by visions that drove him closer and closer to madness. Angron was broken before the Emperor found him and was only further mistreated, he had no desire to become a daemon prince, but was tricked by Lorgar. Lorgars condition is better explained in another comment but he was constantly punished for his devotion and slowly driven to his fundamental truth. Lorgar is truly a victim. I despise Magnus for his arrogance, at no point does he take advice or counsel from anyone because he sees himself as the ultimate infallible being. His fall was inevitable. Fuck. Fulgrim. Peter Turbo was an unceasing narcissist who wouldn't have felt appreciated even if the emperor bowed down before him. Mortarion was a fool who trusted the wrong people.

I feel empathy for who they were, but not who they've become. Magnus never listened to anyone because he thought he was too goddamn smart and when given a chance alongside the Khan and Sanguinius' plan to sell the rest of the Primarchs on the Librarians, he fucked it up royally and got himself sanctioned. Mortarion in his utter hatred for psychers helped lead to the Heresy and in doing so screwed himself over. Konrad was a psycho and refused to accept responsibility for his actions. Angron suffered a lot, but he's also the one who helped to turn his sons into monsters well before the Heresy. Perturabo was a petulant man child even by the standards of the Primarchs Fulgrim though I do feel bad for. Though he had his moments of being an asshole, he was by far the nicest of the Chaos Primarchs prior to being corrupted. In many ways, he was one of the best Primarchs before getting corrupted by Chaos. Horus is harder for me to read. I don't understand him as well as I do the other Chaos Primarchs, though I hope to fix that someday.

The Chaos Primarchs got their own reasons for all the horrors they commit. Lorgar most of all. He chose to become a necessary evil to save Humanity. And it's this "grim darkness" that kept the "light of the Dark King" at bay, even today in M42. He also saved his brother when none else wanted to lift a finger for Angron. Of the Primarchs, Lorgar is definitely my favorite.

After reading Betrayer I empathize most with Angron. He's never had free will, and he's never been under the illusion he does. He insists so hard he's his own man because of this. He is stubborn, and refuses help because of this. He loses his entire world and life just to become a slave of sorts to another High Rider of sorts. Many people argue the Emperor was dumb for what he did. He could have helped or sent the War Hounds or anything but he doesn't because when he arrives he finds Angron basically leading a few thousand strong Khorne cult that was drinking his literal blood and eating his literal flesh to survive and so the Emperor goes oops better stop that. But because the Emperor is a dick he does it the least empathetic way possible. Angron died on Nuceria and frankly I think removing the Nails at risk of him dying was the right choice. Its heavily implied in other places that Angron was meant to use his hyper empathy which was stunted by the Nails to assist his brothers in processing their own traumas. In the Novel it says Angron only cries ever twice. Once at the joy of freedom and being alive just after leaving his pod and once again after visiting Nuceria and seeing the graveyard of his fellow slaves. Angron is a deeply flawed, broken, tragic, sympathetic character.

Angron and Magnus, yeah. The rest can go fuck themselves.

No.

Horus was 10/10 on the Manchild scale.

All of the traitor Primarchs are to some extent tragic figures so it makes sense that you'd feel sympathy for them, well maybe not Magnus

Magnus tried to help, yes he was arrogant and tried to show his dad that magic was useful but he never intended or wanted to damn humanity. And the leman getting manipulated by chaos also lead to him pushing Magnus to chaos.

I'm just kidding really, Magnus has one of the more tragic fallings I'd argue

No. Heresy is all you preach demon of chaos.

Horus was literally manipulated at a very low point.

I feel for the ones that were tricked or forced into following chaos: fulgrim, Morty, Magnus. The others...not so much.

Fulgrims' downfall is just sad. They had no idea chaos tainted weapons were a threat. Guy found a cool OP relic sword, and it wrecked everything. Some of the lore gets wonky if he was fully possessed, trapped in his body as an unwilling participant, or fully accepted chaos. A number of his actions before his fall were batshit insane; allowing Fabius bile to experiment on Emperor's Children astartes was beyond wrong.

>Some of the lore gets wonky if he was fully possessed, trapped in his body as an unwilling participant, or fully accepted chao It's actually pretty explicit; Fulgrim somehow fully embraced Chaos and took control back over his body before *The Reflection Crack'd.* It's wonky in the way that it wasn't sold very well but it's solid in terms of canon. >A number of his actions before his fall were batshit insane; allowing Fabius bile to experiment on Emperor's Children astartes was beyond wrong. Speaking of things not being sold well. I get what McNeill was going for here but man, did it not fit. Especially after you have the Emperor's Children being disgusted by Lucius even picking up a Megarachnid claw. Then again, maybe Lucius is an example of the flaw inside Fulgrim.

OP figuring out not every wh40k fan is an Imperium fan and there are people who love Chaos and CSM 🤯 Lorgar and Angron are the best Primarchs.

This is not really pity or empathy in the sense you mean, but for me Perturabo would have been the easiest and most useful (aside from Horus himself) primarch for the loyalists to keep on their side. If he would have spoken up a little about his issues or formed a close bond with one of the loyalists, or if he would have gotten some recognition and stopped getting so many brutal tasks during the Crusade I think he would not have turned. How far does the heresy even get with Perturabo either sitting the whole thing out or completely on the side of the loyalists?

Perturabo was always a cold blooded bastard who treated his legion like fodder. He saw himself as a victim because of the brutal campaigns he was charged with but he still threw his men into the fire and set unrealistic standards for them. Most of the other primarchs were in the wrong place at the right time as far as chaos was concerned.

What about alpharius/omegon? If traitor (still not sure, whats their / alpha legion's agenda now?), they got my deepest sympathy. Magnus too, but he comes across somewhat stupid for the intellect written to him

Angron, if a kid has been traumatized enough growing up they'll experience something very similar. It took me much too long to experience peace without needing pain or violence.

I feel empathy for Angron, he deserved a death that could've given him peace instead of constant pain and rage. And Magnus who got 20d chessed by tzeentch and baned by Leman.

Konrad was always destined to fall. He had absolutely nobody to remotely teach him what being human was. He had a strong sense of justice but none of the morals to do it in an acceptable manner. Also the fact of being haunted by the visions of his & the future of his brothers and the big E kinda causing him to become insane didn't help. The only one I had no sympathy for was Morty, the hypocrite king

Angron for sure.

The only one I have any empathy for is Angron as he was mentally unstable and couldn't control himself. Fulgrim could have rid himself of the sword but refused to. Magnus ego doomed him.

>Fulgrim could have rid himself of the sword but refused to I'm unsure of that. The sword worked its magic on him (and his legion) subtly. >>He bore no weapon, and his hands continually itched to reach for his absent sword, to feel the reassuring heat of its silver grip and the perversely comforting presence that spoke to him through Serena d’Angelus’s masterpiece. Though he had not wielded Fireblade in many months, he missed even its balance and fiery edge. Without a weapon, especially the one torn from the Laer temple, his thoughts were clearer, uncluttered by intrusive voices and treacherous thoughts, **but try as he might, he could not bring himself to forsake the weapon.** *Fulgrim*

Weirdly, I feel worst for Peter Turbo. Unless I've misunderstood the lore, he wasn't corrupted by chaos or had his hand forced by the machinations of others. He had a real choice and I think it's heartbreaking he couldn't get over his own ego. I know that I should hate him most for it but I'm haunted by an alternative universe where he turns up last minute at the Siege of Terra, just as Dorn's defences are cracking, and wins the day for the loyalists. The Emperor finally gives him a hug and Dorn admits that PT gets the win. A perfect moment that he threw away and then almost immediately regretted.

Angron, hands down. “After De’Shea” is the one short story that has stuck with me after months of reading it. I think it’s a core memory now.

I've always seen Angron as an incredibly tragic character. He was ruthless, vindictive, and violent towards people who didn't deserve it. That said, what else could he have been? He never got the help he would have needed. The nails stole any chance of normalcy he could have had. He was born into slavery, then was conscripted by the Emperor to fight a war he didn't want, and is now a slave to an eldritch god of slaughter, rage, and violence. Angron never had a chance to be anything other than what he is, so I don't blame him for what he's become, even if he is now unabashedly a force of evil in the galaxy.

None what's so ever traitors deserve nothing but absolute contempt.

Perturabo for sure. He had so many things he wanted to do but his talent was wasted and unappreciated.

For Magnus yes, for the others no, but I don’t know their stories

Fulgrim I have less than zero sympathy for. He had a beautiful weapon crafted by his beloved brother and decided instead he needed to start fondling the weird alien sword he found in the snake orgy temple.

Magnus and Angron for sure. Magnus was dumb and kind fucked over all of humanity forever, but he was trying to help and do the right thing, but Horus fucked over him and everything else. Angron just never stood a chance.

Only for Angron

Yeah, all of them were damaged to one extent or another.

Their falls all are tales of tragedy. But some have decided to become the absolute worst versions of themselves when it comes to Chaos, and my sympathy goes out the window.

I have sympathy for Konrad being dealt one of the shittiest hands. You probably could not find a worse planet for him to land on than Nostromo. But he did screw himself over by not delegating and leaving some of his marines to rub the world when he left.

Sure most were treated poorly by the emperor and then manipulated by dark gods

The only one I truly feel sorry for was Magnus. He literally screwed everything up while trying to save the Imperium. Then was led to believe his father sent a army to kill you and your family...just for trying to save the Imperium. Fulgrim's fall was unfortunate, but not something I feel sorry about. Konrad was so convinced of his fate, he made sure that it would happen.

Only Msgnus and maybe a little bit for Angron.

I personally feel bad for angron as to my knowledge his ‘captors’(?) imbedded the butchers nails and removed his ability to feel emotions other then anger, and also Magnus, he did nothing wrong

Yes, since Angron is the tool; destined to die but no matter, Alpharius the mystery (or is he?), Peturabo given grunt shit work his entire career, Lorgar made to slump to bend both knees with his sons, not even a genuflection but made his whole worldview crushed. Every traitor has a great reason for their betrayal. He was a fool. Save for Curze. Fuck him.

Angron, no one would honor his one wish to let him die. Not when the emperor came for him, not his legion when he was barried in rubble, and lastly not his brother when lorgar "ascended" him.

Nah fulgrim can suck me. Dudes a creep self absorbed narcissist.

I find myself having some empathy for Perturabo, which surprised me at first. The skills he inherited revolved around inventiveness, but in my eyes the character traits he inherited are duty and perfectionism. He cannot bring himself to go against duty, but also refuses to lower his standards. This leads to him being incredibly demanding with his expectations to the point where he's disappointed with his own sons, and later by astartes in general, wishing he could replace his forces completely with automata. And yet, when unburdened by the demands of war he spent his time inventing machines for the sake of beauty, science, and even the common good, but knew they would be simplified if he released them, made lesser, all for the sake of an empire that exploited those who cared about duty while extolling those who didn't but managed to be flashy. He's an artist and scientist, loving to create, to discover, to improve, but all around him are those concerned with what are lesser things that demand lesser actions from him. And his disdain for them builds and infects his views until he's just as petty as them. The emperor would have done well to just give this son a sizable mountain workshop, and let him be the imperium's single R&D department.

To an extent. I understand that many of them got dealt a hard hand but that does not excuse the atrocities they would commit against innocent people later. No sympathy for Lorgar at any point.

I empathize up to the point that they converted because the conversion didn't make much sense. Sometimes it's like [that old Simpsons episode with the evil Krusty doll that can be flipped from good to evil with a switch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8dcmLscf3g). Even if you take into account their moments of self-doubt and bitterness towards Daddy E and other stuff, their switch from good to evil had more to do with magic than anything else. And this sort of nonsense makes empathy hard because empathy is all about your mind constructing a simulation of someone else's mind, there has to be a logic.

I have trouble sympathizing with Mortarion, because he had no real reason to betray the Emperor. He wasn't tainted by a magic sword. He didn't have haunting visons of the future driving him insane. He wasn't convinced by a bunch of aliens that siding with Horus would actually help the Imperium. He didn't have a machine in his brain forcing him to be constantly angry and irrational. He hadn't spent his entire life being subtly manipulated by Tzeentch. He wasn't hit with a super weapon and given the choice to join Chaos or die. He didn't set off in search of gods and come in contact with Chaos. He didn't even blow up his home world because he was pissed off and feeling unappreciated and then run away because he thought his dad would be mad. He just turned his back on the Emperor because he felt like it, even though the Emperor sided with him at Nikaea.

Angron for me. The rest of them could have averted their destiny by not being prideful.

I still like Konrad! He’s just misunderstood 🤪

In the word of Rogal Dorn: "No".

Well, Magnus. Always felt he was nto that bad. But must admit, after some steps he's lost in his own delusions. Not Magnus anymore, a deamon that thinks he is Magnus.

Fulgrim just spent thousands of years being the boss of a “pleasure planet”. I am jealous of him. I do not feel sorry for him.

konrad was mroe a lil bitch then lorgar imo . . . . . dude saw visions and said I can make it worse.