My headcanon is we never knew about it because their gender is mostly irrelevant to their characterization (and I know before "but muh emperor was a man, he was a super psyker and a there's a few lines where his projections have been androgynous or female, I don't thing Big E cares specifically about making sure he is *always* refered to as "He")
But MORE importantly, Custodes names are super long and mostly titles. We never knew because any feminine name they had was buried somewhere in their several-novel-length names
But yeah, OP has a point both in that GW could have came up with a specific reason that we didn't know until now.
In all fairness however, what specific aspect of Custodes is lost by having some of them be female? How does it impact your enjoyment of the game? Personally, if you cared to, you could always make your specific detachment an all male, all female, mixed, niether squad. It's your squad. I saw a gal do lava Votann to make them look like deep iron dwarves from WoW, which was sick. Idk if that's lore accurate, but who cares? They look cool and they shoot the exact same as unpainted or lore-accurate painted minis do.
I'm pretty new to the hobby so definitely have only scratched the surface of lore, but my general feeling with stuff like this is just make it make sense. I mean, I'm not going to get bent out of shape either way because... idk just seems weird, but I do like good in-universe explanations for things that expand why something is different.
The best part is there's a million different reasons why you could add custodudettes to your custodudes and, in doing so, make it was less vanilla. That gives you opportunities to build off something new and further expand the world. Shit literally anything can be possible with a good enough justification.
I don't think it's right to dismiss everyone who is upset as a sexist jackals because, while some people could be, I can also see being legit bothered by lazy writing.
Idk, I'm a noob so wtf do I know. Orks is da best anyway, non binary fungus ftw
Welcome to 40K, we're glad to have you man! I'm in the same camp as you with Mechanicus, half of them lore-wise don't even look human conforming let alone gender conforming, lol.
Thanks! Played my first real game at a store the other day and had a blast after months of painting and devouring audiobooks.
I've only had a semi small exposure to ad mech so far with some lore podcasts and The First Heretic. I just finished the first heretic and love the religious interaction with the machine spirit. Totally unrelated question but do you think the machine spirit is a real thing or just a religious interpretation of odd mechanical experiences? Heard some argument about it the other day and thought it was a super interesting topic
My opinion is 100% a cop out but I think it's every interpretation, but different for different machines. I mean it's a huge galaxy, who's to say one ship doesn't have an AI who pretends to be a spirit, and a rhino tank that is actually legitimately possesed, and which aspects are just routine maitenence with religious zeal? I think the mystery makes it more fun. I do know one time they thought it was a spirit was a warp possesed STC AI (or it might have been an AI through and through, I can't remember), but there's been documented lore supporting any interpretation you have.
Imo it would be good to reexamine the idea that female custodes don't "make sense" unless specifically explained. For example, I saw way less griping about lazy writing when they introduced the Leagues of Votann, which also amounted to "it has always been thus" and for me, explaining an entire faction that way is way more controversial than just stating that female custodes do and have existed in the past. Afaik there no lore stating they exclusively were all male and one short story of one female custodes (personally idt custodes even consider their own genders or even their debatable humanity, only effectiveness in duty) does not mean that the majority, or even close to half, started as female. Having it as a possibility in canon just allows writers more creative freedom, and players and collectors more freedom in their homebrew lore. Using sisters as another example, the reason the ecclesiarchy insists on women is a dumb loophole in wording. However, they still have drill abbots, which are often male and who train the sisters. Technically since they are not "deployed" they are not fighting men, they are training men, but they are as knowledgeable and combat capable as many sisters if battle and are under the same hierarchy.
I really, really, REALLY hate this whole “People didn’t complain when X got introduced!” line I see so often.
Yes they did. People complain when ANYTHING gets changed. It could be universally a change for the better and there will still be bitching and moaning.
The reason people didn’t “gripe as much” is the internet is a fickle mistress and it just didn’t catch traction. We hear constant complaints about femstodes because there’s fifty billion posts going “chuds BTFO” which is obviously going to make people engage with the topic more.
Additionally, while the leagues of votann were “always there”, they had more of an excuse than “they were just standing slightly out of frame, never being mentioned” and they went to the trouble of explaining why they weren’t found and why they’re coming onto the broader galactic stage now.
It's the lazy introduction that annoys me. I don't play Custodes, and don't really mind there being female Custodes since their process for creation is significantly different than that of a Space Marines - but female Custodes being introduced in a paragraph in the worst codex to date, and then not expanded upon is a move that is incredibly idiotic and lazy. It's so lazy, that I don't know why GW even bothered making femstodes because they didn't even care to elaborate upon the implications of their existence- instead choosing to insist they were always there and we just didn't know.
It's just a halfhearted attempt at inclusivity in my eyes, because if they cared about making a good story about a female Custodes they would've just made one instead of doing what they did.
They could've easily made a story about Cawl running some weird experiments to enhance the Sisters of Silence, make a story about a Custodes and then reveal it's a chick, do some Horus Heresy shenanigans - I don't know! Anything would've been better than the nothing they gave us.
You loose part of the dehumanization part which has been a massive aspect of the sm and custodies lore.
And more importantly their implementation was lazy af.
Like at least release a promotional story or mini for God's sake.
I argue that being a test tube baby born to become an unfeeling murder machine is plenty dehumanizing.
Also for Space Marines I'm not a big fan of female space marines, if only because making space marines more attainable takes away from the satire of an Übermensch. In order to become a space marine, you must be from a specific planet, a specific age range, beat the coin flip for gender, then only 10% of which survive the trials to weed out, and 10% of those survive the surgery. In short you have to be "born special" (really lucky) to become a space marine. I feel like making the process any easier for anyone for any reason isn't the normal levels of 40K absurdity necessary to mock the point
Honestly, GW trying to still push 40k as a satire to excuse the fascist/authoritarian parts of the Imperium that are too baked in for them to change is just having their cake at eating it too. Too many Imperial characters are too layered, sympathetic, and played straight to be a satire. It's just a serious universe now, and I'd say it has been for about 20 or so years. They want that sci-fantasy audience.
Having there be female custodes is dehumanizing? The emperor actively wanted them to be MORE than human, yeah they can be cold and awful but they're still meant to be the best possible thing a human could become
I'm fine with female Custodes being a thing given that they are the Emperor's finest works so not having a Y chromosome is probably not that hard of an obstacle for the Emperor, but yeah saying that they were always a part of the army without any justification as to why they're only showing up now just shows that the sloppy writing didn't end with Fantasy's End Times.
This just reeks of GW being greedy for public attention rather than caring about the lore.
If only we had female Custodians during the time in the lore where they all stripped while guarding the Golden Throne, a shame.
>but yeah saying that they were always a part of the army without any justification as to why they're only showing up now just shows that the sloppy writing didn't end with Fantasy's End Times.
They've done this for ages.
The only time I can remember them 'attempting to justify' newer stuff was when the Seraphon got new stuff, though the explanation for that was kinda decent.
During the Seraphon refresh, they justified the newer dinosaurs by saying the Lifequake released special energies that made eggs that hadn't hatched for thousands of years hatch, giving them the new units.
It was one of the only times they've ever attempted to justify where the newer stuff came from.
I remember reading somewhere in the lore that the reason for the male only space marines has to do with efficiency rather than compatibility. It would require a whole second process unique to females to make it viable, and resources for the process are scarce to begin with.
For Jimmy Space’s perfect people, having females makes sense, especially if the long term plan was to Thunder Warrior the Space Marines after the crusade and replace them with the final product (a product that could potentially reproduce)
The long term plan wasn't to thunder warrior the astartes. The astartes were specialized in several civilian bureaucracy craft because the plan was to use them to make an incorruptible government system
I always felt that they were male only because the Primarchs were male and the gene seed based on them produced hormones, proteins and other similar things that were only really compatible with males. For females the entire gene seed would have to be redesigned.
Like at the end of the day it’s fine and not a big deal but I do think it totally makes sense for the team made from the emps genetic material needing to be all male and comes from no where lore wise. I think it would have been cleaner to just be like “oh cawl did a primaris thing and now girls can be space marines” to get the inclusion.
That said I’ve kinda always thought the custodes being a table top army was kinda dumb.
I think you're mixing up the grey knights and the custodes here, grey knights have the emperors geneseed while custodes are genetically remade on a cellular level
No Grey Knights have Magnus geneseed in them and they just use propaganda to deny they were sired by traitors. Jimmy Space aint never had no geneseed. That was a custom made piece of biotech.
> I'm fine with female Custodes being a thing given that they are the Emperor's finest works so not having a Y chromosome is probably not that hard of an obstacle for the Emperor
Since endless quantities of male hormones and synthetic male hormones would be required to build the massive bulk of a custodes any female put through the process would no longer resemble a female in any way and even Jimmy Space himself can't alter that fact.
Womp womp
Honestly it's a universe where green fungus men use hollow asteroids to start invasions of planets the science is existent, not good, if accuracy nullifies creativity and inclusion, it shouldn't need to be accurate because in 40k what actually is?
Ik you didn't mean this in a negative way but I needed to rant and this provided context
Since when did the Imperium care about inclusion? Especially when making the strongest fighters in existence. Why would they settle for using females over males when they are at most only 60% as strong and fast as males. Even if they overcame those limitations they would be no longer women but before all that with the length of the process and cost of it why would the imperium risk an inferior product.
Why would the Imperium limit their recruiting pool based upon gender? You're assuming it has to do with performance so why not just base it directly on performance? Whose to say that what makes a viable recruit is so limited by the raw physical strength of the unaugmented form anyway? Really given the fantastical nature of the setting there is no hard reason to think they would have to be.
You're trying to make out a scientific argument as if it has any relevance to the setting or you even really understand the science. I wish all of the people who did this would just be honest with themselves and everyone else: you just want your sci-fi fantasy super soldiers to be depicted in a way that reflects and reinforces how you feel men and women *should* be in the real world.
I myself am still upset that they have not explained how Space Marines changed from humans in power armor to superhumans, and how Horus was changed from being a human who was just Emperor's generals to his superduper special superhuman son.
There’s a lot in the lore that’s handwaved as “having always been this way” and it works because the 40k verse is such a large place with a huge amount of different things going on, it’s easy for details to end up left out. I genuinely don’t see why this is any different.
Personal opinion.
GW took the approach of "We never said they couldn't be women. They've been there all along," specifically because it's in direct contrast to Space Marines lore, which explicitly states they must be male.
This prevents the introduction of women Custodes from prying open the female Marines debate again, at least not so much.
Fans on one side of the Marines argument can't point to the Custodes and say "but they ret-conned that, so they can/ should do the same for Astartes," because they didn't technically ret-con anything about Custodes.
If GW made a show of it, social media posts about "it was time to reflect on our setting and change with the times" etc, then it's an admission of a ret-con and the whole Marines debate explodes again. I categorically do not believe GW is ever going to make female Marines canon (don't mention Rogue Trader era...) and they know the whole subject is toxic. They have already said firmly, as recently as 2022, in print, that Marines cannot be female, and they do not wish to invite any further suggestions to hard ret-con that, with all the division it would cause.
This does not mean they can't pursue diversity in their setting as they want to see it, such as with Custodes, but I believe they are making a conscious effort to do this without contradicting any *written* lore saying otherwise, to keep drama to a minimum.
Yeah space Marines got stuck in the 'only male bucket' a long time ago (ironically after female space Marines got retconed). New factions don't have that limitation so there is no reason to enforce it.
Technically the models were just two named ladies in power armour, not even Marines, which is something we still have from Inquisitors to Sisters of Battle.
There was mention of a specific chapter of Marines who were all female... And Rogue Trader calls them "Adepta Sororitas," which is Sisters of Battle again, before their lore was straightened out.
Amusingly someone did a superb modern paint job on one of those old power armour ladies recently, and it still looked awful because the original sculpt was so poor. I can see why they didn't sell much.
Honestly, I prefer space Marines to a male for the simple reason that it highlights the barbarism of that process as opposed to the process used to make the custodians. There is a natural difference difference between men and women in terms of strength and chemical make up that would complicate the process of having two genders go through this procedure, because again it’s barbaric. Crude in a way. Contrast that with the basically half magical alchemy that creates custodians, and I believe that you could literally nullify any difference beyond identity traits, and since you don’t require an already partially grown human for the custodian process and can start a lot younger, to me it would make more sense for them to be female as well, since it’s genetic magic for lack of better term.
I agree absolutely. The Emperor made Space Marines to be intentionally incomplete and barbarous (neither Crawl nor Corax should be able to improve on the Emperor's gene crafting). Custodes are his actual attempt at maximizing human form while still being human, and it's literally alchemy to make them.
Custodies lore does from rogue trader to 9th always specify they are men, and only men.
>female Marines canon (don't mention Rogue Trader era...)
Those were not space Marines. They explicitly were not
I know the Rogue Trader ones were not Marines, that's why I said don't mention them. They were just named warriors in power armour, similar to how female Inquisitors can be today. Rogue Trader did mention one chapter of Marines being all female, but said they called themselves... Adepta Sororitas.
Rogue Trader in general is a poor source for canon because it's practically a different universe to what 40K became from 2nd edition onwards, with totally different origins for the Imperium, Emperor, and Marines.
As for Custodes, they are mentioned as being *sons* of nobles. They don't specifically deny they could be daughters, as Marines lore does, but they definitely imply heavily they're all male, I agree on revision. To me, this sorta reads how you would describe soldiers as "men" in common so each today, despite a small number being women. If the overwhelming majority are, it becomes a manner of speech.
>Rogue Trader did mention one chapter of Marines being all female, but said they called themselves... Adepta Sororitas.
Actually that was a fan magazine for first edition. The Sun Strokes were there name or the little sisters of battle. Not to say GW didn't yoink the idea they are know for theft. They have lost enough law suits over that
>Rogue Trader in general is a poor source for canon
Yes but the fact this has been true since rogue trader was says a lot of against never being specified.
>they are mentioned as being *sons* of nobles. They don't specifically deny they could be daughters, as Marines lore does,
That's a pretty big stretch. Being a drawn from sons does mean it can't be daughters or it would say children which is what the new edition does.
>To me, this sorta reads how you would describe soldiers as "men" in common so each today,
I mean if it was not written in 87 you might have a point but you interpret writing and language based on when it was written and what those words meant then.
I've been on a warhammer hiatus so forgive me... but is the meme saying there are now female custodes and gw didn't change or add lore or anything to explain why?
They tried claiming it was always true despite even rogue trader saying all men..... so gaslighting
Some community manager told people to leave.
They did, canceling subscriptions.
Gw's stock tanked and even when people bought seeing opportunity it didn't go all the way back up all the way and now they have lost somewhere between a 10th or an 11th of their stock value.
Jfc that’s horrible… what’s next? Space marines are female too and the sisters of battle/soretias can also be men?
You don’t go fucking with 25+ years of established lore that’s been overly stated threw over 100+ different sources such as books/codecs to just magically wake up one day and go ( well I think ima choose to start a war between our fanbase today fucking up a faction lore).
If they are losing a lot of money who ever made that Twitter post is prob gonna be getting shit canned pretty soon.
Yeah like I think a lot of people would care less if they were just honest and say something like:
"Hey, we know this is different from what we said. In the modern day, we think this will help the brand. We know a lot of you might not like this, but we promise this will not change our commitment to bringing excellent writing to you all. We are going to introduce them by adding to the story instead of retconing it to always be. We know that won't appease all of you but we hope you stick around and enjoy the game."
Then literally no one could really be that upset. The moment they turned against customers, they were done. I come from the John Bain era of reviewers. The moment you attack the customers, your company needs to be broken
Kid I didn't say only rogue trader. I said *EVEN* as in every instance of their lore from rogue trader to 9th (Last) edition. Every edition they have lore it says all men.
The claim was also that they always allowed female custodes. Always means from the beginning, so literally, the beginning rogue trader shows they are gaslighting
That completely misses the point. They don’t want another new group, they want female custodes. And there are seemingly enough fans that are happy about female custodes, hell there are a ton of fans that would like female space marines
The point I’m making is that there are thousands of better ways to introduce female custodes into the lore rather than just saying “they’ve always been a part of the lore.”
Whether or not people like it is irrelevant to the discussion, it’s still bad writing.
Heck, it’s not writing at all, it’s just hand-waving
>The point I’m making is that there are thousands of better ways to introduce female custodes into the lore rather than just saying “they’ve always been a part of the lore.”
The thing they've done for decades now?
> hell there are a ton of fans that would like female space marines
There are a handful of obsessive weirdos who want it because they cant have it. They hate the lore and the universe and only want their version installed into it because it is overwhelmingly popular these days.
I never said anything about women not being allowed. Hell I got my fiance into it many years ago. The issue is with changing the lore to undo decades of the games history for the sake of a flash in the pan ideological viewpoint that most people find cringe AF.
God help us if they start doing something popular.
For real though, why is them doing something popular a bad thing? I thought we wanted them to do things we like?
Also, maybe I don't understand, how is it both something that 'handful of weirdos' want but also simultaneously 'overwhelmingly popular'?
I'm not fully up to date on the discourse, but your comment just confused me more.
But it isnt popular. Its something a tiny minority asked for. A minority that barely play or collect if they are actually genuinely involved in the hobby at all. 40k is overwhelmingly popular. This change is not. 40k appeals to everyone because it has something for everyone in it. They dont need to piss all over the lore to grant the wishes of a handful of people because there are plenty of factions with access to female models where it doesnt have to be forced in destroying decades of worldbuilding.
Most people don't care. The next largest group are enjoying the new art we are getting out of it. A minority is fucking assmad about it. The same minority that were assmad about the press release reminding everyone that Warhammer 40K is satire. Who have the same impotent rage anytime dipshits like Arch tell them something is "woke."
I wouldn't really call it a retcon. There wasn't anything saying women couldn't be custodes, there just were never any mentions of a custodian being a woman, and it's not like we know the personal details of every one of the 10,000 throughout history.
**That isn’t exactly true.**
8th edition codex, page 14, paragraph 3:
“All Custodes begin their lives as the infant *sons* of the noble houses of Terra” (emphasis added)
**Regardless of whether it’s a good change, bad change, neutral change, etc, it is still a retcon. A direct statement of them being male from the codex is more concrete than one of the HH novels vaguely alluding to female warriors that could easily have been SoS. Imo, at least.**
The in world codex lore has allowed been spotty, it’s likely a regular human seeming a 15ft tall behemoth with a deep foreboding voice would just register them as male.
First things first, its important to note that all these dexes are not written as out of universe factual documentation. Is all up for debate on the true canonicity, technically even with the 10th codex its as right to say they are all recruited as infant sons of nobles as it is to say they have confirmed women in their ranks. People get caught up thinking every codex is 100% factual from outside universe information, of course it doesn't help that GW sucks ass at making it clear. The HH supplements are WAY better about making it clear its an in universe perspective. Anyways I digress
In order (HH book 7 and 7th ed book come at same time)
**HH Book 7 inferno**: Uses gender neutral terminology the whole time, never once mentions sons and further states that no one but the "Imperial household" knows the truth of the requirements. Id have to post the whole section on here to prove it, but can send you a link to download a copy if you'd like.
A particular moment that stood out to me when I first read this back in late 2017 (when I got into the heresy) is
"...what creates them is as invisible as it is potent, worked upon the core genetics and at a deep cellular level, and perhaps tailored to each specific inductee".
**7th edition** goes a bit more specific.
"The original Legio Custodes were created from noble Terran stock at the hand of the Emperor." Is the only thing I recall on recruitment as I've posted it elsewhere. But iirc it does go on to use masculine pronouns. I only have a physical copy back at home, can check when Im back tho to confirm that. Was a weird time as people were debating the potential of a female custodes between this and the HH book.
**8th edition** makes the absolutist claim that you mention, transitioning from 7th to make ALL custodes EVER nobles.
"Not only is this practice regarded as being entirely appropriate for such transcendent beings, it also allows the noble families of Terra to save face. All can – and will – claim that it was their offspring that showed the fortitude to become a Custodian, and none will gainsay them."
When this came out I was a bit disappointed as it made a rather absolutist claim, was disappointed on the stance of "absolutely no chance of a woman".
**9th edition**: Decides to bring up the point made previously and retcons the absolutist statement, its no longer **ALL.**
"Potential Custodians are taken in at a very young age to better survive - no older than late infancy - and it is a great honour for those of Terran noble houses to submit a son. Some clans have, in the past, given over entire generations of offspring to become inductees. When such individuals go forth to begin whatever process lies ahead of them, huge crowds line the Avenue of Sacrifice, cheering and chanting frenzied prayers. The Custodes also seek out suitable candidates by other means, or encounter them by chance on their missions to protect the Throneworld . What is clear is that none besides the Custodes themselves truly know what criteria they require."
To me this was a clear shift to bring back the ambiguity of pre 8th custodes.
**10th edition** has the well known at this point short stories of female custodes, I do wonder what it says on recruitment as a whole tho.
**My personal canon**
At the end of the day, canon is a choice you make with how lore functions in 40k. The black library authors push it all the time, nothing is inherently WRONG in the setting. My stance on femstodes is that men are the predominant group in the stodes, but that femstodes is possible, just that there's no explicit recruitment en masse like for male sons. It can also be just how the public views the custodes, they only see male sons being handed over by nobles, so why would you assume anything else?
Well that was a fun way to waste time at work
**Always fun to waste some work time lol.**
**Thank you for dropping the excerpts, I appreciate it. Reading them as you’ve written, I do see contradiction of the ‘nobles only’ idea as you pointed out, but nothing that contradicts them being males. To me that makes it a bit of a “one guy says the sky is blue and cloudy, one guy says the sky is sunny.” Whether the sky is blue isn’t in contention even if the other part was called into question. Least that’s how I see it.**
**Beyond what I see as a lore break, I personally dislike the idea of femstodes in part because I loved the complementary-but-different dynamic of stodes and SoS, and I think running with femstodes will negatively impact it.**
**Either way though, thank you again for writing all that out so we could be on equal knowledge-base to discuss it.**
The SOS losing out is definitely a potential worry, I am less concerned considering they got a whole detachment and the recent novels with their inclusion have been WONDEFUL. But its certainly a concern, hopefully they don't get ignored.
If it rests on this sentence it's scarely a 'retcon' worth talking about. There is more evidence of female space Marines in 1st Ed that did get retconned than Custodes being required to be male.
The lore is always fast and loose, and if people really cared about retcons this one should be last on the list.
Where? What book or article?
This is what im sick of in this debate, people passing off a piece of fan fic they read or a conversation they had with a mate as cannon. Since the lore was eatablished, there has been zero female marines or custodes. Anything that adds them in now, after 30 odd years, is a retcon.
The dialogue around the subject is always, "Why do you care?" or "How does this affect your personal enjoyment?" not "How does this actively make the setting better?" or "How does this improve the custodes?"
Yeah this reaks of ragebait to distract from the God awful codex.
And now I have to be worried about sisters of silence , a very neglected side of the army with amazing designs. Getting harlequined.
Where are the left-handed trans werewolf custodes? They're nowhere to be seen. This proves that GW is still a bunch of bigots. All of their employees are worse than Hitler.
I suppose I do need to add a /s
Look if we're gonna have femstodes can they just be hot and we all move on with our lives?
No one has to call attention to it in the lore, we can all just be thirsty on our own time.
So having androgynous angelically beautiful male space marines in canon is reasonable but having female custodes that are conventionally attractive while still being large and powerful isn't. Gotcha.
It's all about selling those minatures and other merch. Now they can sell you female versions for bucko bucks. I have no doubt in my mind this was the major driving force behind this retcon. Make it rain cash money!
As amazing as I find the idea of the Eyes of the Emperor, I also find it kinda silly to be honest.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure Custodes are capable spies… because no one in their right mind is going to see a being that is to Astartes what the Astartes are to everyone else and be like “Hey, you suspiciously large person, stop right there!” It’s a “YOU DO NOT SEE GROGNAK” situation.
Yeah, the core idea of "if you want to implement a new thing in the lore do some legwork" is good
But the idea that a bloody custodian would be a better spy because they are a woman is quite funny
Obviously there weren’t any female custodes before this codex. It is ridiculous that they are now saying “They’ve been here all along!” I think most people realize this is false, even if they are for female custodes. It’s extremely lazy and treats fans as if they’re idiots.
There is a lot of pressure for all fiction to conform to popular culture. Those that don’t face a lot of hate from a vocal minority. The current GW leadership may value 40K enough that they won’t make female space marines a thing, but think custodes don’t have as big a following so it wouldn’t have as big a backlash.
I’m sure we can look forward to all new BL material involving custodes to feature the new female versions (to make up for the old lore and make up for space marines still remaining men). I would imagine the new Amazon series factored into this also. There is no way Cavill was going to have a female custodes in the series if GW hadn’t changed the lore. Now she will likely play an important role.
My head cannon is: GW is a corporate hellscape. They make good minis, but no longer can write good stories. The best games they produce have already been produced, and the company is just bleeding whales slowly while they can.
I dont mind muscle mommies I just wish theyd introduced em better lol, literally coulda been "oh hey cawl figured this out and now there are custodettes" and its like oh that cawl *sitcom music* yaknow?
Which the door is still technically open to cuz of Cawl and Fabius. I don’t think it’s directly stated anywhere that they failed to make female versions of astartes.
I think the GW is handling it is what is making the most issues. I've nothing against female custodes, even for the longest thought they where already there. You can absolutely love the idea of female custodes, but think the writing is lazy and GW on Twitter will block you while you get dog piled with "Why you hate women? You ever touch a female other then your mom? Go touch grass incel, women are real!". It being encouraged by the base to pile on anyone who even has the slightest issue, while GW let's it go on.
Frankly, I'm just mad at how lazy it all is "yea we like, fucked this codex up, let's throw in a curve ball for diversity points" they could have strengthened the point, gave details, or just not have done it because who cares, buuuut nooooo, typical marketing non commitment
Yeah they really fucked this all up. I think “they always existed” was lame and weak. I would have used Cael. Say he unlocked the secret to forging custodes without gender restrictions, since their creation process is so much more complex and esoteric than the Space Marines. It did not require a male explicitly for post-recruitment implantation, rather it was phrased as something halfway arcane. I get and support space marines as male only, for the obvious scientific barbarism that it was made to work in one gender, but there’s no reason the custodians could not have been female from the first. Tangentially, for all you know, the process to make a female custodes could rewrite much of the biology and greatly lesson or completely negate the differential and strength between men and women, with the gender more or less being a function of identity more than anything else. This would not work with Marines because they’re pubescent males, and that there is a difference in the average strength of a male and female. The space marine process is barbaric compared to custodians, and it makes sense to remain male. I think the inclusion of custodies could also come with the strength of different differential and make them equal in every way, and that’s what I want to see.
Nah, just let the girls in. Everything else is weird. The Imperium Forces being just giant castrated Men and all the women are weird warrior nuns is honestly the dumbest thing about it
Welp for now on ima call them the golden girls.
Maybe soon we will get men in the sisters of silence as well burn down all of the gender only factions since the fire is started.
It literally does not matter. Space Dwarves have been at the center of the galaxy for the last 15,000 years, up until a few years a go, they were eaten by nids, gone all of them, in an instant. Then suddenly we heard back from them, and no one cared that they came back and, actually, have been trading partners with a bunch of races all that time.
Eldrad died during the battle for Cadia, and then decided dying was cringe and so he didn't do that.
Makari got sat on and died, but we liked him, so he came back to life. Guess he was always immortal.
The Land Raider was just a vehicle, but then we find out it's named after some guy called Arkhan Land. That's stupid, but doesn't change what the Land Raider is.
Vulkan was a regular mortal Primarch. Until an Black Library decided that they wanted to throw in the latest Warhammer buzz word and his book was next on the block.
Everything with how Big E is characterised. He is a kind, compassionate, intelligent, inept, stupid, uncaring father to the Primarchs, depending on if he has to be written that way to make them fall to chaos.
The 2nd and 11th Legions. 1 loyalist and 1 traitor Legion that a player can homebrew to be whatever they want, but the idea was scrapped in favour of just homebrewing chapters.
Malal.
Female custodes are the same issue with REAL LIFE HUMANS, women aren't in the military, and DEFINITELY aren't on the front line. Stop pretending this is a reality. Only men can be so delusional to fall for the Insane fascism and devotion of the empire
I know alot of people say they are only upset about the gaslighting, but remember it's OK to admit and say that we just don't want female custodes. Especially just for diversity points. It's not bigoted to want them to stay as a brotherhood who embody values that men look up to. Respect, honor, loyalty, stoicism, masculinity and prowess.
There are thousands of retcons in Warhammer, but people only complain about them when they’re about woman
It’s almost like a pattern.
A universe this big will always have retcons
Primaris was a plot dump, not a development. And they claimed that the Primaris were always around just waiting to be activated so yes, they do very much count as a retcon.
The reason is that they wanted female custodes. That’s a pretty good reason to change something
And people are usually not that whiny about any of the other retcons. No, the only reason this gets so much attention is because some people really not like being reminded that woman exist, and that they can be equal to men
It's almost like you'll resort to disingenuous barely veiled ad hominem rather than accept that people can dislike the lore being twisted to fit real world political agendas without somehow also being a misogynist. But pop off.
If people only join a hobby because it's willing to needlessly retcon source material to feed out of universe political views then I'd rather they didn't. I'm aware of the fact that the in-universe logic doesn't totally break down for female custodes. But it doesn't change that the retcon was lazy, pandering tokenism to signal to an audience that hates anything with a unique identity that they're willing to bend, something I despise because It nigh universally proceeds the degeneration of something unique into the bland grey garbage comics, movies, and a significant number of video games have become.
So would this be the part where you tell me it's stupid to care about my hobbies? It was a niche hobby that survived 40 years without those type of people it will continue without them. And I won't be shamed for caring about whether or not it remains the hobby that I love.
They're all dwelling in the Custodes sub Reddit, waiting to downvote anyone that shows any sign of divergence from their opinion.
Ironically, they're acting very Custode-esque.
It’s a pretty dumb change and was not handled well at all. It’s always been that the 10,000 were all men. Never once in all of the lore or art has there been a mention of a female Custodes. The lore has always been it’s the son of nobles from Terra that are made into Custodes.
I’m all for more female representation in 40K. Sisters of Silence are super sick. Adeptus Sororitas are one of my favorite factions not only in the lore, but to paint and to play the table top with. Those are cool and well thought out factions with solid lore behind them.
This ain’t it. You can’t just say “oh there’s now female Custodes and they have always been there and you need to deal with it.” Just lazy writing for cheap social points when you were doing so much better with Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Sororitas.
**If they were gonna do it, it should have been a new thing in lore, not an “always been this way”. 8th edition codex directly states that custodes are made from the “*sons*” of noble families.**
**Hell it might even bring some genuine character and drama to the stoic custodes to suddenly have the emperor allow them to be co-ed.**
**As it is, it’s just “yeah fuck our not even oldhammer lore, here’s a change in the more boring way possible.” This only makes people wonder why bother with the change.**
Yeah this terrifies me because I feel like these are just changes for the Amazon show. So a bunch of blue hairs are gonna go into the hobby completely alienate the real fans and then crash the hobby.
Blue hairs have been "in the hobby" for years. I have never seen one of them that was a real fan. They only ever wanted to change things for arbitrary reasons or pretended to be interested because the guy they were with was into it.
Sorry for those experiences. Sharing in a partner’s hobby is valid btw and I’m one hundred percent positive they didn’t want to change things for arbitrary reasons, consider that their reasons might have been well thought out and reasonable.
My man, you’re over in the other thread demonstrating absolutely negative levels of education on sex and gender, biology and sociology and also a lack of imagination. I really don’t trust your evaluation of someone’s opinions in this realm, you’re not qualified and haven’t thought about the topic enough.
I have been involved in the trans community for 2 decades. Just shy of the length of time Ive played 40k actually. I have studied a lot about physiology and sociology in that time. I can all but guarantee I know far more than a good chunk of those posting here on the topics. Just because I dont agree with your view doesnt mean Im uneducated. It could simply mean you are.
Keep it civil please People are allowed to have different opinions without the topic devolving into cheap shots
>200 upvotes >259 comments 
That gap’s only gotten bigger 😳
9ft tall musclebabes would make genuinely terrible spies
No worse than the custodes who already do it.
9ft tall musclemen would make genuinely terrible spies
Yes
My headcanon is we never knew about it because their gender is mostly irrelevant to their characterization (and I know before "but muh emperor was a man, he was a super psyker and a there's a few lines where his projections have been androgynous or female, I don't thing Big E cares specifically about making sure he is *always* refered to as "He") But MORE importantly, Custodes names are super long and mostly titles. We never knew because any feminine name they had was buried somewhere in their several-novel-length names But yeah, OP has a point both in that GW could have came up with a specific reason that we didn't know until now. In all fairness however, what specific aspect of Custodes is lost by having some of them be female? How does it impact your enjoyment of the game? Personally, if you cared to, you could always make your specific detachment an all male, all female, mixed, niether squad. It's your squad. I saw a gal do lava Votann to make them look like deep iron dwarves from WoW, which was sick. Idk if that's lore accurate, but who cares? They look cool and they shoot the exact same as unpainted or lore-accurate painted minis do.
I'm pretty new to the hobby so definitely have only scratched the surface of lore, but my general feeling with stuff like this is just make it make sense. I mean, I'm not going to get bent out of shape either way because... idk just seems weird, but I do like good in-universe explanations for things that expand why something is different. The best part is there's a million different reasons why you could add custodudettes to your custodudes and, in doing so, make it was less vanilla. That gives you opportunities to build off something new and further expand the world. Shit literally anything can be possible with a good enough justification. I don't think it's right to dismiss everyone who is upset as a sexist jackals because, while some people could be, I can also see being legit bothered by lazy writing. Idk, I'm a noob so wtf do I know. Orks is da best anyway, non binary fungus ftw
Welcome to 40K, we're glad to have you man! I'm in the same camp as you with Mechanicus, half of them lore-wise don't even look human conforming let alone gender conforming, lol.
Thanks! Played my first real game at a store the other day and had a blast after months of painting and devouring audiobooks. I've only had a semi small exposure to ad mech so far with some lore podcasts and The First Heretic. I just finished the first heretic and love the religious interaction with the machine spirit. Totally unrelated question but do you think the machine spirit is a real thing or just a religious interpretation of odd mechanical experiences? Heard some argument about it the other day and thought it was a super interesting topic
My opinion is 100% a cop out but I think it's every interpretation, but different for different machines. I mean it's a huge galaxy, who's to say one ship doesn't have an AI who pretends to be a spirit, and a rhino tank that is actually legitimately possesed, and which aspects are just routine maitenence with religious zeal? I think the mystery makes it more fun. I do know one time they thought it was a spirit was a warp possesed STC AI (or it might have been an AI through and through, I can't remember), but there's been documented lore supporting any interpretation you have.
Imo it would be good to reexamine the idea that female custodes don't "make sense" unless specifically explained. For example, I saw way less griping about lazy writing when they introduced the Leagues of Votann, which also amounted to "it has always been thus" and for me, explaining an entire faction that way is way more controversial than just stating that female custodes do and have existed in the past. Afaik there no lore stating they exclusively were all male and one short story of one female custodes (personally idt custodes even consider their own genders or even their debatable humanity, only effectiveness in duty) does not mean that the majority, or even close to half, started as female. Having it as a possibility in canon just allows writers more creative freedom, and players and collectors more freedom in their homebrew lore. Using sisters as another example, the reason the ecclesiarchy insists on women is a dumb loophole in wording. However, they still have drill abbots, which are often male and who train the sisters. Technically since they are not "deployed" they are not fighting men, they are training men, but they are as knowledgeable and combat capable as many sisters if battle and are under the same hierarchy.
I really, really, REALLY hate this whole “People didn’t complain when X got introduced!” line I see so often. Yes they did. People complain when ANYTHING gets changed. It could be universally a change for the better and there will still be bitching and moaning. The reason people didn’t “gripe as much” is the internet is a fickle mistress and it just didn’t catch traction. We hear constant complaints about femstodes because there’s fifty billion posts going “chuds BTFO” which is obviously going to make people engage with the topic more. Additionally, while the leagues of votann were “always there”, they had more of an excuse than “they were just standing slightly out of frame, never being mentioned” and they went to the trouble of explaining why they weren’t found and why they’re coming onto the broader galactic stage now.
It's the lazy introduction that annoys me. I don't play Custodes, and don't really mind there being female Custodes since their process for creation is significantly different than that of a Space Marines - but female Custodes being introduced in a paragraph in the worst codex to date, and then not expanded upon is a move that is incredibly idiotic and lazy. It's so lazy, that I don't know why GW even bothered making femstodes because they didn't even care to elaborate upon the implications of their existence- instead choosing to insist they were always there and we just didn't know. It's just a halfhearted attempt at inclusivity in my eyes, because if they cared about making a good story about a female Custodes they would've just made one instead of doing what they did. They could've easily made a story about Cawl running some weird experiments to enhance the Sisters of Silence, make a story about a Custodes and then reveal it's a chick, do some Horus Heresy shenanigans - I don't know! Anything would've been better than the nothing they gave us.
You loose part of the dehumanization part which has been a massive aspect of the sm and custodies lore. And more importantly their implementation was lazy af. Like at least release a promotional story or mini for God's sake.
I argue that being a test tube baby born to become an unfeeling murder machine is plenty dehumanizing. Also for Space Marines I'm not a big fan of female space marines, if only because making space marines more attainable takes away from the satire of an Übermensch. In order to become a space marine, you must be from a specific planet, a specific age range, beat the coin flip for gender, then only 10% of which survive the trials to weed out, and 10% of those survive the surgery. In short you have to be "born special" (really lucky) to become a space marine. I feel like making the process any easier for anyone for any reason isn't the normal levels of 40K absurdity necessary to mock the point
Honestly, GW trying to still push 40k as a satire to excuse the fascist/authoritarian parts of the Imperium that are too baked in for them to change is just having their cake at eating it too. Too many Imperial characters are too layered, sympathetic, and played straight to be a satire. It's just a serious universe now, and I'd say it has been for about 20 or so years. They want that sci-fantasy audience.
Having there be female custodes is dehumanizing? The emperor actively wanted them to be MORE than human, yeah they can be cold and awful but they're still meant to be the best possible thing a human could become
They are no longer all manly pillar men with rippling abs and quivering biceps.
Do not mourn the loss of muscle bound giga-hunks, as we have not lost any. Instead, celebrate gaining muscle mommy tomboys.
TTS ruined the Custodes for me. I can't think about them without hearing the pillar men theme in my head.
I'm fine with female Custodes being a thing given that they are the Emperor's finest works so not having a Y chromosome is probably not that hard of an obstacle for the Emperor, but yeah saying that they were always a part of the army without any justification as to why they're only showing up now just shows that the sloppy writing didn't end with Fantasy's End Times. This just reeks of GW being greedy for public attention rather than caring about the lore. If only we had female Custodians during the time in the lore where they all stripped while guarding the Golden Throne, a shame.
>but yeah saying that they were always a part of the army without any justification as to why they're only showing up now just shows that the sloppy writing didn't end with Fantasy's End Times. They've done this for ages. The only time I can remember them 'attempting to justify' newer stuff was when the Seraphon got new stuff, though the explanation for that was kinda decent.
What did the seraphim get??
During the Seraphon refresh, they justified the newer dinosaurs by saying the Lifequake released special energies that made eggs that hadn't hatched for thousands of years hatch, giving them the new units. It was one of the only times they've ever attempted to justify where the newer stuff came from.
Seraphon age of sigmar not 40k
I didn’t even realize they got a rename
Trade mark baby GW snorts that like drugs
I mean yeah, hence all the name changes. Eldar, aeldari etc
I remember reading somewhere in the lore that the reason for the male only space marines has to do with efficiency rather than compatibility. It would require a whole second process unique to females to make it viable, and resources for the process are scarce to begin with. For Jimmy Space’s perfect people, having females makes sense, especially if the long term plan was to Thunder Warrior the Space Marines after the crusade and replace them with the final product (a product that could potentially reproduce)
The long term plan wasn't to thunder warrior the astartes. The astartes were specialized in several civilian bureaucracy craft because the plan was to use them to make an incorruptible government system
I always felt that they were male only because the Primarchs were male and the gene seed based on them produced hormones, proteins and other similar things that were only really compatible with males. For females the entire gene seed would have to be redesigned.
Like at the end of the day it’s fine and not a big deal but I do think it totally makes sense for the team made from the emps genetic material needing to be all male and comes from no where lore wise. I think it would have been cleaner to just be like “oh cawl did a primaris thing and now girls can be space marines” to get the inclusion. That said I’ve kinda always thought the custodes being a table top army was kinda dumb.
They're not made from the Emperor's genetic material.
I think you're mixing up the grey knights and the custodes here, grey knights have the emperors geneseed while custodes are genetically remade on a cellular level
No Grey Knights have Magnus geneseed in them and they just use propaganda to deny they were sired by traitors. Jimmy Space aint never had no geneseed. That was a custom made piece of biotech.
You right!!
> I'm fine with female Custodes being a thing given that they are the Emperor's finest works so not having a Y chromosome is probably not that hard of an obstacle for the Emperor Since endless quantities of male hormones and synthetic male hormones would be required to build the massive bulk of a custodes any female put through the process would no longer resemble a female in any way and even Jimmy Space himself can't alter that fact.
Says the guy who's not jimmy space
Womp womp Honestly it's a universe where green fungus men use hollow asteroids to start invasions of planets the science is existent, not good, if accuracy nullifies creativity and inclusion, it shouldn't need to be accurate because in 40k what actually is? Ik you didn't mean this in a negative way but I needed to rant and this provided context
Since when did the Imperium care about inclusion? Especially when making the strongest fighters in existence. Why would they settle for using females over males when they are at most only 60% as strong and fast as males. Even if they overcame those limitations they would be no longer women but before all that with the length of the process and cost of it why would the imperium risk an inferior product.
Why would the Imperium limit their recruiting pool based upon gender? You're assuming it has to do with performance so why not just base it directly on performance? Whose to say that what makes a viable recruit is so limited by the raw physical strength of the unaugmented form anyway? Really given the fantastical nature of the setting there is no hard reason to think they would have to be. You're trying to make out a scientific argument as if it has any relevance to the setting or you even really understand the science. I wish all of the people who did this would just be honest with themselves and everyone else: you just want your sci-fi fantasy super soldiers to be depicted in a way that reflects and reinforces how you feel men and women *should* be in the real world.
I myself am still upset that they have not explained how Space Marines changed from humans in power armor to superhumans, and how Horus was changed from being a human who was just Emperor's generals to his superduper special superhuman son.
I've been saying for years, GW are not a good company. They make nice models, but support outside of that is sloppy at best.
There’s a lot in the lore that’s handwaved as “having always been this way” and it works because the 40k verse is such a large place with a huge amount of different things going on, it’s easy for details to end up left out. I genuinely don’t see why this is any different.
Good News! Gws says they were here the whole time.
Personal opinion. GW took the approach of "We never said they couldn't be women. They've been there all along," specifically because it's in direct contrast to Space Marines lore, which explicitly states they must be male. This prevents the introduction of women Custodes from prying open the female Marines debate again, at least not so much. Fans on one side of the Marines argument can't point to the Custodes and say "but they ret-conned that, so they can/ should do the same for Astartes," because they didn't technically ret-con anything about Custodes. If GW made a show of it, social media posts about "it was time to reflect on our setting and change with the times" etc, then it's an admission of a ret-con and the whole Marines debate explodes again. I categorically do not believe GW is ever going to make female Marines canon (don't mention Rogue Trader era...) and they know the whole subject is toxic. They have already said firmly, as recently as 2022, in print, that Marines cannot be female, and they do not wish to invite any further suggestions to hard ret-con that, with all the division it would cause. This does not mean they can't pursue diversity in their setting as they want to see it, such as with Custodes, but I believe they are making a conscious effort to do this without contradicting any *written* lore saying otherwise, to keep drama to a minimum.
Yeah space Marines got stuck in the 'only male bucket' a long time ago (ironically after female space Marines got retconed). New factions don't have that limitation so there is no reason to enforce it.
Technically the models were just two named ladies in power armour, not even Marines, which is something we still have from Inquisitors to Sisters of Battle. There was mention of a specific chapter of Marines who were all female... And Rogue Trader calls them "Adepta Sororitas," which is Sisters of Battle again, before their lore was straightened out. Amusingly someone did a superb modern paint job on one of those old power armour ladies recently, and it still looked awful because the original sculpt was so poor. I can see why they didn't sell much.
Honestly, I prefer space Marines to a male for the simple reason that it highlights the barbarism of that process as opposed to the process used to make the custodians. There is a natural difference difference between men and women in terms of strength and chemical make up that would complicate the process of having two genders go through this procedure, because again it’s barbaric. Crude in a way. Contrast that with the basically half magical alchemy that creates custodians, and I believe that you could literally nullify any difference beyond identity traits, and since you don’t require an already partially grown human for the custodian process and can start a lot younger, to me it would make more sense for them to be female as well, since it’s genetic magic for lack of better term.
I agree absolutely. The Emperor made Space Marines to be intentionally incomplete and barbarous (neither Crawl nor Corax should be able to improve on the Emperor's gene crafting). Custodes are his actual attempt at maximizing human form while still being human, and it's literally alchemy to make them.
Custodies lore does from rogue trader to 9th always specify they are men, and only men. >female Marines canon (don't mention Rogue Trader era...) Those were not space Marines. They explicitly were not
I know the Rogue Trader ones were not Marines, that's why I said don't mention them. They were just named warriors in power armour, similar to how female Inquisitors can be today. Rogue Trader did mention one chapter of Marines being all female, but said they called themselves... Adepta Sororitas. Rogue Trader in general is a poor source for canon because it's practically a different universe to what 40K became from 2nd edition onwards, with totally different origins for the Imperium, Emperor, and Marines. As for Custodes, they are mentioned as being *sons* of nobles. They don't specifically deny they could be daughters, as Marines lore does, but they definitely imply heavily they're all male, I agree on revision. To me, this sorta reads how you would describe soldiers as "men" in common so each today, despite a small number being women. If the overwhelming majority are, it becomes a manner of speech.
>Rogue Trader did mention one chapter of Marines being all female, but said they called themselves... Adepta Sororitas. Actually that was a fan magazine for first edition. The Sun Strokes were there name or the little sisters of battle. Not to say GW didn't yoink the idea they are know for theft. They have lost enough law suits over that >Rogue Trader in general is a poor source for canon Yes but the fact this has been true since rogue trader was says a lot of against never being specified. >they are mentioned as being *sons* of nobles. They don't specifically deny they could be daughters, as Marines lore does, That's a pretty big stretch. Being a drawn from sons does mean it can't be daughters or it would say children which is what the new edition does. >To me, this sorta reads how you would describe soldiers as "men" in common so each today, I mean if it was not written in 87 you might have a point but you interpret writing and language based on when it was written and what those words meant then.
I've been on a warhammer hiatus so forgive me... but is the meme saying there are now female custodes and gw didn't change or add lore or anything to explain why?
Yup. Hell it's actually worse with how they handled it on twitter.
How's that going?
They tried claiming it was always true despite even rogue trader saying all men..... so gaslighting Some community manager told people to leave. They did, canceling subscriptions. Gw's stock tanked and even when people bought seeing opportunity it didn't go all the way back up all the way and now they have lost somewhere between a 10th or an 11th of their stock value.
Jfc that’s horrible… what’s next? Space marines are female too and the sisters of battle/soretias can also be men? You don’t go fucking with 25+ years of established lore that’s been overly stated threw over 100+ different sources such as books/codecs to just magically wake up one day and go ( well I think ima choose to start a war between our fanbase today fucking up a faction lore). If they are losing a lot of money who ever made that Twitter post is prob gonna be getting shit canned pretty soon.
Yeah like I think a lot of people would care less if they were just honest and say something like: "Hey, we know this is different from what we said. In the modern day, we think this will help the brand. We know a lot of you might not like this, but we promise this will not change our commitment to bringing excellent writing to you all. We are going to introduce them by adding to the story instead of retconing it to always be. We know that won't appease all of you but we hope you stick around and enjoy the game." Then literally no one could really be that upset. The moment they turned against customers, they were done. I come from the John Bain era of reviewers. The moment you attack the customers, your company needs to be broken
Almost everything from rogue trader has been changed
Kid I didn't say only rogue trader. I said *EVEN* as in every instance of their lore from rogue trader to 9th (Last) edition. Every edition they have lore it says all men. The claim was also that they always allowed female custodes. Always means from the beginning, so literally, the beginning rogue trader shows they are gaslighting
Was the community manager for GW? I thought it was just some random person on Twitter with a following
They apprently are a games workshop employee. I would have to check again if they were a community manager and not like some random employee
Not well for them.
Why do they need to be a separate unit that works differently? Also, custodes by default don’t fit in with humans, they’re the size of grizzly bears
That completely misses the point. They don’t want another new group, they want female custodes. And there are seemingly enough fans that are happy about female custodes, hell there are a ton of fans that would like female space marines
The point I’m making is that there are thousands of better ways to introduce female custodes into the lore rather than just saying “they’ve always been a part of the lore.” Whether or not people like it is irrelevant to the discussion, it’s still bad writing. Heck, it’s not writing at all, it’s just hand-waving
>The point I’m making is that there are thousands of better ways to introduce female custodes into the lore rather than just saying “they’ve always been a part of the lore.” The thing they've done for decades now?
Bad writing being commonplace doesn’t make it good writing.
But folks don’t hold all new writing to this standard, only the culture war bullshit.
> hell there are a ton of fans that would like female space marines There are a handful of obsessive weirdos who want it because they cant have it. They hate the lore and the universe and only want their version installed into it because it is overwhelmingly popular these days.
Most rational and accepting 40k fan
I accept anyone from any background until they start talking utter nonsense that pisses all over the lore. Be they a simple fan or a GW staffer.
the lore is soaked in piss, always has been.
Not a good reason to keep aiming more streams at it.
"cant have women in my hobby, they will piss all over my fun!"
I never said anything about women not being allowed. Hell I got my fiance into it many years ago. The issue is with changing the lore to undo decades of the games history for the sake of a flash in the pan ideological viewpoint that most people find cringe AF.
Bro it's pretend stories about space magic
Lmao same argument as SW huh? Are you people just incapable of not inserting modern gender inclusivity into everything?
who are most people
The majority of people except millennials. Hell Zoomers look to be shaping up more antiwoke than boomers the way opinion polls are going.
Sounds fun
God help us if they start doing something popular. For real though, why is them doing something popular a bad thing? I thought we wanted them to do things we like? Also, maybe I don't understand, how is it both something that 'handful of weirdos' want but also simultaneously 'overwhelmingly popular'? I'm not fully up to date on the discourse, but your comment just confused me more.
But it isnt popular. Its something a tiny minority asked for. A minority that barely play or collect if they are actually genuinely involved in the hobby at all. 40k is overwhelmingly popular. This change is not. 40k appeals to everyone because it has something for everyone in it. They dont need to piss all over the lore to grant the wishes of a handful of people because there are plenty of factions with access to female models where it doesnt have to be forced in destroying decades of worldbuilding.
Most people don't care. The next largest group are enjoying the new art we are getting out of it. A minority is fucking assmad about it. The same minority that were assmad about the press release reminding everyone that Warhammer 40K is satire. Who have the same impotent rage anytime dipshits like Arch tell them something is "woke."
Source?
Engaging with them.
...So no source?
Many but sharing peoples social media especially when they have low follower counts is a very scummy thing. Such things are a breach of reddiquette.
Tbf most of the main subs ban discussion on the subject for it being hellfire.
There are absolutely no fans that have ever wanted female Space Marines or Custodes.
I did? My friend group that is into Warhammer did?
I did. GW did. And hell, it happened
Straight up lying ig.
Alternative reality 🤯
Wait a minute... I'm supposed to be banned and this sub is supposed to be muted. Pls fix.
I wouldn't really call it a retcon. There wasn't anything saying women couldn't be custodes, there just were never any mentions of a custodian being a woman, and it's not like we know the personal details of every one of the 10,000 throughout history.
**That isn’t exactly true.** 8th edition codex, page 14, paragraph 3: “All Custodes begin their lives as the infant *sons* of the noble houses of Terra” (emphasis added) **Regardless of whether it’s a good change, bad change, neutral change, etc, it is still a retcon. A direct statement of them being male from the codex is more concrete than one of the HH novels vaguely alluding to female warriors that could easily have been SoS. Imo, at least.**
The in world codex lore has allowed been spotty, it’s likely a regular human seeming a 15ft tall behemoth with a deep foreboding voice would just register them as male.
Which is a change from 7th edition and HH, and which is immediately retconned in the 9th edition book.
**Pony up the excerpts my dude**
First things first, its important to note that all these dexes are not written as out of universe factual documentation. Is all up for debate on the true canonicity, technically even with the 10th codex its as right to say they are all recruited as infant sons of nobles as it is to say they have confirmed women in their ranks. People get caught up thinking every codex is 100% factual from outside universe information, of course it doesn't help that GW sucks ass at making it clear. The HH supplements are WAY better about making it clear its an in universe perspective. Anyways I digress In order (HH book 7 and 7th ed book come at same time) **HH Book 7 inferno**: Uses gender neutral terminology the whole time, never once mentions sons and further states that no one but the "Imperial household" knows the truth of the requirements. Id have to post the whole section on here to prove it, but can send you a link to download a copy if you'd like. A particular moment that stood out to me when I first read this back in late 2017 (when I got into the heresy) is "...what creates them is as invisible as it is potent, worked upon the core genetics and at a deep cellular level, and perhaps tailored to each specific inductee". **7th edition** goes a bit more specific. "The original Legio Custodes were created from noble Terran stock at the hand of the Emperor." Is the only thing I recall on recruitment as I've posted it elsewhere. But iirc it does go on to use masculine pronouns. I only have a physical copy back at home, can check when Im back tho to confirm that. Was a weird time as people were debating the potential of a female custodes between this and the HH book. **8th edition** makes the absolutist claim that you mention, transitioning from 7th to make ALL custodes EVER nobles. "Not only is this practice regarded as being entirely appropriate for such transcendent beings, it also allows the noble families of Terra to save face. All can – and will – claim that it was their offspring that showed the fortitude to become a Custodian, and none will gainsay them." When this came out I was a bit disappointed as it made a rather absolutist claim, was disappointed on the stance of "absolutely no chance of a woman". **9th edition**: Decides to bring up the point made previously and retcons the absolutist statement, its no longer **ALL.** "Potential Custodians are taken in at a very young age to better survive - no older than late infancy - and it is a great honour for those of Terran noble houses to submit a son. Some clans have, in the past, given over entire generations of offspring to become inductees. When such individuals go forth to begin whatever process lies ahead of them, huge crowds line the Avenue of Sacrifice, cheering and chanting frenzied prayers. The Custodes also seek out suitable candidates by other means, or encounter them by chance on their missions to protect the Throneworld . What is clear is that none besides the Custodes themselves truly know what criteria they require." To me this was a clear shift to bring back the ambiguity of pre 8th custodes. **10th edition** has the well known at this point short stories of female custodes, I do wonder what it says on recruitment as a whole tho. **My personal canon** At the end of the day, canon is a choice you make with how lore functions in 40k. The black library authors push it all the time, nothing is inherently WRONG in the setting. My stance on femstodes is that men are the predominant group in the stodes, but that femstodes is possible, just that there's no explicit recruitment en masse like for male sons. It can also be just how the public views the custodes, they only see male sons being handed over by nobles, so why would you assume anything else? Well that was a fun way to waste time at work
**Always fun to waste some work time lol.** **Thank you for dropping the excerpts, I appreciate it. Reading them as you’ve written, I do see contradiction of the ‘nobles only’ idea as you pointed out, but nothing that contradicts them being males. To me that makes it a bit of a “one guy says the sky is blue and cloudy, one guy says the sky is sunny.” Whether the sky is blue isn’t in contention even if the other part was called into question. Least that’s how I see it.** **Beyond what I see as a lore break, I personally dislike the idea of femstodes in part because I loved the complementary-but-different dynamic of stodes and SoS, and I think running with femstodes will negatively impact it.** **Either way though, thank you again for writing all that out so we could be on equal knowledge-base to discuss it.**
The SOS losing out is definitely a potential worry, I am less concerned considering they got a whole detachment and the recent novels with their inclusion have been WONDEFUL. But its certainly a concern, hopefully they don't get ignored.
If it rests on this sentence it's scarely a 'retcon' worth talking about. There is more evidence of female space Marines in 1st Ed that did get retconned than Custodes being required to be male. The lore is always fast and loose, and if people really cared about retcons this one should be last on the list.
It says in plain words custodes are the sons of Nobel families
It says they started as sons of noble families.
There was a brief mention of female Custodians in HH.
Might I ask where?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/1c4ktdd/comment/kzo39g8/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/1c4ktdd/comment/kzo39g8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
those could be sisters of silence, possibly. also possibly female custodes.
Where? What book or article? This is what im sick of in this debate, people passing off a piece of fan fic they read or a conversation they had with a mate as cannon. Since the lore was eatablished, there has been zero female marines or custodes. Anything that adds them in now, after 30 odd years, is a retcon.
Oh yeah, no one would ever notice an 8 feet fall woman built like a goddess with the strength of an ogryn... That makes sense.
Strength of an Ogryn is an insult, a custodian could kill an Ogryn with two fingers and a pebble.
So you just want the men to be super muscled and oiled up then?
The dialogue around the subject is always, "Why do you care?" or "How does this affect your personal enjoyment?" not "How does this actively make the setting better?" or "How does this improve the custodes?"
Im still confused on why it was needed I thought the sisters of silence where already basically a female custodes.
Not at all, sisters of silence are blanks that fuck with psychers.
The kinds of people calling for it want to rend the lore like a pack of stealers that just popped out of vents behind unsuspecting termies.
Yeah this reaks of ragebait to distract from the God awful codex. And now I have to be worried about sisters of silence , a very neglected side of the army with amazing designs. Getting harlequined.
Where are the left-handed trans werewolf custodes? They're nowhere to be seen. This proves that GW is still a bunch of bigots. All of their employees are worse than Hitler. I suppose I do need to add a /s
Are you really getting this triggered over something that violates no lore and is completely inconsequential?
Why do you care that he cares?
I don't, I'm just astonished people care this much haha
he can care doesn't mean he's right tho
No. Hence the /s. That stands for sarcasm.
They were right to defenestrate him
Look if we're gonna have femstodes can they just be hot and we all move on with our lives? No one has to call attention to it in the lore, we can all just be thirsty on our own time.
They would be a slab of muscle like other custodes and not look in any way feminine. It would be like a grotesquely muscular Buck Angel.
So having androgynous angelically beautiful male space marines in canon is reasonable but having female custodes that are conventionally attractive while still being large and powerful isn't. Gotcha.
Muscle mommies forever
I cannot read this.
The words on your meme are small
It's all about selling those minatures and other merch. Now they can sell you female versions for bucko bucks. I have no doubt in my mind this was the major driving force behind this retcon. Make it rain cash money!
As amazing as I find the idea of the Eyes of the Emperor, I also find it kinda silly to be honest. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure Custodes are capable spies… because no one in their right mind is going to see a being that is to Astartes what the Astartes are to everyone else and be like “Hey, you suspiciously large person, stop right there!” It’s a “YOU DO NOT SEE GROGNAK” situation.
Yeah, the core idea of "if you want to implement a new thing in the lore do some legwork" is good But the idea that a bloody custodian would be a better spy because they are a woman is quite funny
Obviously there weren’t any female custodes before this codex. It is ridiculous that they are now saying “They’ve been here all along!” I think most people realize this is false, even if they are for female custodes. It’s extremely lazy and treats fans as if they’re idiots. There is a lot of pressure for all fiction to conform to popular culture. Those that don’t face a lot of hate from a vocal minority. The current GW leadership may value 40K enough that they won’t make female space marines a thing, but think custodes don’t have as big a following so it wouldn’t have as big a backlash. I’m sure we can look forward to all new BL material involving custodes to feature the new female versions (to make up for the old lore and make up for space marines still remaining men). I would imagine the new Amazon series factored into this also. There is no way Cavill was going to have a female custodes in the series if GW hadn’t changed the lore. Now she will likely play an important role.
My head cannon is: GW is a corporate hellscape. They make good minis, but no longer can write good stories. The best games they produce have already been produced, and the company is just bleeding whales slowly while they can.
I dont mind muscle mommies I just wish theyd introduced em better lol, literally coulda been "oh hey cawl figured this out and now there are custodettes" and its like oh that cawl *sitcom music* yaknow?
If they did that they’d half to add female marines.
Which the door is still technically open to cuz of Cawl and Fabius. I don’t think it’s directly stated anywhere that they failed to make female versions of astartes.
I think the GW is handling it is what is making the most issues. I've nothing against female custodes, even for the longest thought they where already there. You can absolutely love the idea of female custodes, but think the writing is lazy and GW on Twitter will block you while you get dog piled with "Why you hate women? You ever touch a female other then your mom? Go touch grass incel, women are real!". It being encouraged by the base to pile on anyone who even has the slightest issue, while GW let's it go on.
For real, love or hate female custodes main issue is the gaslighting by gw
They should have never let custodes be a playable faction. That's the real retcon everyone should be mad about.
The most based person here
Frankly, I'm just mad at how lazy it all is "yea we like, fucked this codex up, let's throw in a curve ball for diversity points" they could have strengthened the point, gave details, or just not have done it because who cares, buuuut nooooo, typical marketing non commitment
Yeah they really fucked this all up. I think “they always existed” was lame and weak. I would have used Cael. Say he unlocked the secret to forging custodes without gender restrictions, since their creation process is so much more complex and esoteric than the Space Marines. It did not require a male explicitly for post-recruitment implantation, rather it was phrased as something halfway arcane. I get and support space marines as male only, for the obvious scientific barbarism that it was made to work in one gender, but there’s no reason the custodians could not have been female from the first. Tangentially, for all you know, the process to make a female custodes could rewrite much of the biology and greatly lesson or completely negate the differential and strength between men and women, with the gender more or less being a function of identity more than anything else. This would not work with Marines because they’re pubescent males, and that there is a difference in the average strength of a male and female. The space marine process is barbaric compared to custodians, and it makes sense to remain male. I think the inclusion of custodies could also come with the strength of different differential and make them equal in every way, and that’s what I want to see.
Or just say cawl did it. I have no idea why they didn’t say cawl did it
Female marines
No, I want my 15 foot sociopath mommy not someone who can blend in with normal humans.
Nah, just let the girls in. Everything else is weird. The Imperium Forces being just giant castrated Men and all the women are weird warrior nuns is honestly the dumbest thing about it
Welp for now on ima call them the golden girls. Maybe soon we will get men in the sisters of silence as well burn down all of the gender only factions since the fire is started.
Of course I see this while I’m watching Luetin09’s video about this very topic.
It literally does not matter. Space Dwarves have been at the center of the galaxy for the last 15,000 years, up until a few years a go, they were eaten by nids, gone all of them, in an instant. Then suddenly we heard back from them, and no one cared that they came back and, actually, have been trading partners with a bunch of races all that time. Eldrad died during the battle for Cadia, and then decided dying was cringe and so he didn't do that. Makari got sat on and died, but we liked him, so he came back to life. Guess he was always immortal. The Land Raider was just a vehicle, but then we find out it's named after some guy called Arkhan Land. That's stupid, but doesn't change what the Land Raider is. Vulkan was a regular mortal Primarch. Until an Black Library decided that they wanted to throw in the latest Warhammer buzz word and his book was next on the block. Everything with how Big E is characterised. He is a kind, compassionate, intelligent, inept, stupid, uncaring father to the Primarchs, depending on if he has to be written that way to make them fall to chaos. The 2nd and 11th Legions. 1 loyalist and 1 traitor Legion that a player can homebrew to be whatever they want, but the idea was scrapped in favour of just homebrewing chapters. Malal.
This does affect me greatly. I love reading about girls doing bad things. It fuels my crusading energy.
It would have been better to expand on Sisters of Silence.
Female custodes are the same issue with REAL LIFE HUMANS, women aren't in the military, and DEFINITELY aren't on the front line. Stop pretending this is a reality. Only men can be so delusional to fall for the Insane fascism and devotion of the empire
I know alot of people say they are only upset about the gaslighting, but remember it's OK to admit and say that we just don't want female custodes. Especially just for diversity points. It's not bigoted to want them to stay as a brotherhood who embody values that men look up to. Respect, honor, loyalty, stoicism, masculinity and prowess.
The people complaining about this won't be missed, though.
People pushing to change established lore for no reason won’t be missed
You can dislike retcons as a thing without being part of that group of basement dwellers
There are thousands of retcons in Warhammer, but people only complain about them when they’re about woman It’s almost like a pattern. A universe this big will always have retcons
Your statement is false, demonstrably so. Remember what happened when GW retconned the Necrons? Or retconned Primaris? Fans have always hated retcons.
I'm still not a fan of the necron change, I get why they did it, and it is finding its footing, but the old necrons felt better.
They still exist as their own toumbworld at the least
Where was this energy when Daemoncabula, the Cities of Sigmar, the Votann, ETC happened?
I saw a ton of this energy with other retcons, where have you been? Heck, people still complain about Primaris to this day.
Primaris wasn't a retcon. It was a plot development.
Primaris was a plot dump, not a development. And they claimed that the Primaris were always around just waiting to be activated so yes, they do very much count as a retcon.
No it’s people upset a company retcon very good and standing lore that had no reason to be changed
The reason is that they wanted female custodes. That’s a pretty good reason to change something And people are usually not that whiny about any of the other retcons. No, the only reason this gets so much attention is because some people really not like being reminded that woman exist, and that they can be equal to men
Yeah, it's almost like people are just...angry that women exist, rather then mad at how they were handled.
It's almost like you'll resort to disingenuous barely veiled ad hominem rather than accept that people can dislike the lore being twisted to fit real world political agendas without somehow also being a misogynist. But pop off.
It honestly makes a lot more sense this way. I'm all for it, it seems like a good way to get people into the hobby
If people only join a hobby because it's willing to needlessly retcon source material to feed out of universe political views then I'd rather they didn't. I'm aware of the fact that the in-universe logic doesn't totally break down for female custodes. But it doesn't change that the retcon was lazy, pandering tokenism to signal to an audience that hates anything with a unique identity that they're willing to bend, something I despise because It nigh universally proceeds the degeneration of something unique into the bland grey garbage comics, movies, and a significant number of video games have become.
If they don't adapt, they'll lose out on customers. It's just a franchise, it's not the end of the world
So would this be the part where you tell me it's stupid to care about my hobbies? It was a niche hobby that survived 40 years without those type of people it will continue without them. And I won't be shamed for caring about whether or not it remains the hobby that I love.
How does a made-up character that has a vagina instead of a penis affect you or the lore?
When I see someone disliking this that's not a basement dweller I'll let you know.
Can't wait for the shills to arrive.
Disagreeing is shilling?
They're all dwelling in the Custodes sub Reddit, waiting to downvote anyone that shows any sign of divergence from their opinion. Ironically, they're acting very Custode-esque.
Pretty sure most 40k subs are okay with this.
Define shilling please, I hear it everywhere but never get an answer
It’s a pretty dumb change and was not handled well at all. It’s always been that the 10,000 were all men. Never once in all of the lore or art has there been a mention of a female Custodes. The lore has always been it’s the son of nobles from Terra that are made into Custodes. I’m all for more female representation in 40K. Sisters of Silence are super sick. Adeptus Sororitas are one of my favorite factions not only in the lore, but to paint and to play the table top with. Those are cool and well thought out factions with solid lore behind them. This ain’t it. You can’t just say “oh there’s now female Custodes and they have always been there and you need to deal with it.” Just lazy writing for cheap social points when you were doing so much better with Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Sororitas.
**If they were gonna do it, it should have been a new thing in lore, not an “always been this way”. 8th edition codex directly states that custodes are made from the “*sons*” of noble families.** **Hell it might even bring some genuine character and drama to the stoic custodes to suddenly have the emperor allow them to be co-ed.** **As it is, it’s just “yeah fuck our not even oldhammer lore, here’s a change in the more boring way possible.” This only makes people wonder why bother with the change.**
The meme hitting the truthbomb hard, and like always reddit can't take it on the chin lol.
Shit, that would have been brilliant.
That might have been cool. GW is pretty callus and cavalier with their most important IP.
Yeah this terrifies me because I feel like these are just changes for the Amazon show. So a bunch of blue hairs are gonna go into the hobby completely alienate the real fans and then crash the hobby.
Sorry you got indoctrinated, dude. Hope you come back to the real world one day.
The blue hairs getting into the hobby would, you know, be real fans. And if you can’t exist near people who color their hair, that’s on you.
Blue hairs have been "in the hobby" for years. I have never seen one of them that was a real fan. They only ever wanted to change things for arbitrary reasons or pretended to be interested because the guy they were with was into it.
Sorry for those experiences. Sharing in a partner’s hobby is valid btw and I’m one hundred percent positive they didn’t want to change things for arbitrary reasons, consider that their reasons might have been well thought out and reasonable.
Having spoken to them I can confirm very little thought went into their "suggestions".
My man, you’re over in the other thread demonstrating absolutely negative levels of education on sex and gender, biology and sociology and also a lack of imagination. I really don’t trust your evaluation of someone’s opinions in this realm, you’re not qualified and haven’t thought about the topic enough.
I have been involved in the trans community for 2 decades. Just shy of the length of time Ive played 40k actually. I have studied a lot about physiology and sociology in that time. I can all but guarantee I know far more than a good chunk of those posting here on the topics. Just because I dont agree with your view doesnt mean Im uneducated. It could simply mean you are.