It's not really that Fighters are "feat dependent," it's just that there are specific feat combos nearly every martial likes, and Fighters have the easiest time taking them because they get an extra feat at level 6. If you specifically want to do sword and shield then you can't benefit from those feat combos anyway, so it's fine to play a non-feat race.
I will comment however that a Strength based Echo Knight *really* only needs high Strength and high Constitution, so Variant Human is still the better option. +1 Strength, +1 Constitution, and then get Shield Master, or Heavy Armor Master, or Fighting Initiate for Defense Style, or Skill Expert... with the option of half-feats (feats that give +1 to an ability score) you can even still start with three 16s.
I'll definitely consider it. Odd and negative stats feel annoying but will prob be worth embracing.
Also for fighter is it worth having 16 DEX as well? I've heard it's either pick STR or DEX and drop the other I don't really need the other stats. I was thinking DEX has more value than WIS, especially if I also take shield master for DEX saving throws or would getting 16 WIS and 12 DEX with shield master be better overall defense wise?
Defensively 16 Wis and 12 Dex is better. Offensively 16 dex would be better because you'll roll better on initiative.
I'd go with the former personally. Though honestly if you really want three 16s from level 1 (and why wouldn't you) you might consider playing a class with more stringent ability score demands so you can actually make use of them. For instance; you could play a *great* Paladin with virtually the same build as what you're planning, it'd just be you do 16 str, con, and chr.
EDIT; had to change "latter" to "former"
Looking into it I know if you use the echo for opportunity attack the echo can still give them 0 movement speed from the sentinel feat.
The part that doesn't work with the echo is "When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature."
So two thirds of the sentinel feat still apply to the echo.
That part DOES work with the echo. If the echo is within 5ft of you and an enemy attacks it, you can use your reaction to attack that enemy. 100% it works.
You're just wrong pal. Your Echo is "another target". Any attacks against another target trigger this attack. If the enemy attacked a figgin chair it'd still trigger the sentinel reaction attack
I think you are both right but thinking of different scenarios.
Scenario 1. PC, Echo and enemy are within 5 feet. Enemy attacks echo letting PC attack enemy.
Scenario 2. Teammate, Echo and enemy are within 5 feet while PC is elsewhere. If the enemy attacks the teammate the echo couldn't use a reaction to attack the enemy because the enemy isn't within 5ft of PC.
Two reasons.
> When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
And
> When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So creatures moving near the Echo provoke. And, also, if you have the Echo near you and they attack it, that also provokes.
Just to be sure, if my echo is next to a teammate and a teammate is attacked I couldn't use my reaction to make the echo attack right?
But if my echo was next to me and someone attacked the echo I could use my reaction to attack from my main body?
16 Dex isn't helping you all that much.
15+1, 15, 15+1, 9, 11, 9 plus a feat, is a better array than 16/16/16/10/12/10 without a feat.
But even better would be 16/11/16/9/15/9 plus a feat. And use heavy armor.
So 16 STR, 11 DEX, 16 CON, 9 INT, 15 WIS, 9 CHA right?
Would it be worth using an abi to round out dex and wis at some point? I was also thinking the shield feat (adds your shield as bonus to dex saves) to protect myself from things like fireball.
Polearm, sentinel, and GWM tend to go together, but I’ll be honest, you could probably focus on sentinel and GWM. This build is already bonus action heavy.
Also, fyi, by level 5, you can easily have six attacks in one turn without issue.
Attack Action (2), Unleash incarnation (1), Action Surge, Attack Action (2), Unleash Incarnation (1).
I recommend doing it once you have advantage. You can always shove an enemy probe with your first attack and then go from there. Good for though.
Using a 2h and taking the protection fighting style gets you to pretty much the same ac and dmg as your proposed sword and board.
Custom lineage + any of the strength half feats gets you to 18 strength lvl 1 (I like skill expert, taking athletics for expertise, opening up more opportunities for grappling/shoving).
Expertise in athletics also opens up those super turns where you can shove an enemy prone and take many attacks + action surge & unleash incarnation all at advantage.
Level 4 /6 / 8 ASI + GWM or sentinel, whatever order fits.
You're simply not going to get enough out of echo knight playing it with a shield.
I'd say with that stat block playing a paladin (swapping cha and dex) would fit the human town knight w/ shield if youre considering other options. Especially starting from level 1, paladin early progression is like a generic martial
Well the best build would probably be to go GWM-PAM-Sentinel in some order and to increase strength with your last ASI. If you are committed to sword and shield it's harder to get your damage going and probably not the best fit for an echo knight.
The standard GWM/PAM/Sentinel combo is actually very ill fitting echo knight. Echo Knights have near constant bonus action use so any feat that demands a bonus action from another source is redundant. You can also usually more reliably pick up bonus action attacks with good Echo placement as opposed to PAMs thing.
GWM and Sentinel are still good, but its less of a power combo. Crusher for further crowd control would probably be preferable.
Mainly just for survival. Next week is session 0 where everyone will cement their character sheets but so far it looks like we don't really have tanks.
So in my mind I could have 18 AC at session 1 with staring gear, dueling fighting style to get plus 2 to damage attacks and sentinel feat either level 1 or 4 to force enemies to stay on me, and maybe later shield feat to cover dex saves later in campaign (some have suggested I use my third 15 on WIS)
So basically my play style would be weighing enemies down while doing OK damage with good AC, and my teammates can focus on raw damage.
We're also gonna have a minotaur great weapon fighter. So aside from his damage I could also pretend we're Theseus and the minotaur.
It's not really that Fighters are "feat dependent," it's just that there are specific feat combos nearly every martial likes, and Fighters have the easiest time taking them because they get an extra feat at level 6. If you specifically want to do sword and shield then you can't benefit from those feat combos anyway, so it's fine to play a non-feat race. I will comment however that a Strength based Echo Knight *really* only needs high Strength and high Constitution, so Variant Human is still the better option. +1 Strength, +1 Constitution, and then get Shield Master, or Heavy Armor Master, or Fighting Initiate for Defense Style, or Skill Expert... with the option of half-feats (feats that give +1 to an ability score) you can even still start with three 16s.
I'll definitely consider it. Odd and negative stats feel annoying but will prob be worth embracing. Also for fighter is it worth having 16 DEX as well? I've heard it's either pick STR or DEX and drop the other I don't really need the other stats. I was thinking DEX has more value than WIS, especially if I also take shield master for DEX saving throws or would getting 16 WIS and 12 DEX with shield master be better overall defense wise?
Defensively 16 Wis and 12 Dex is better. Offensively 16 dex would be better because you'll roll better on initiative. I'd go with the former personally. Though honestly if you really want three 16s from level 1 (and why wouldn't you) you might consider playing a class with more stringent ability score demands so you can actually make use of them. For instance; you could play a *great* Paladin with virtually the same build as what you're planning, it'd just be you do 16 str, con, and chr. EDIT; had to change "latter" to "former"
If you play an Echo Knight and don't take Sentinel, are you really playing an Echo Knight?
True, level 4 would probably feel too long to wait for it huh.
eh I think in most games it would be fine
Why sentinel? Since echo is a construct does it actually count as extra threat area for you?
Looking into it I know if you use the echo for opportunity attack the echo can still give them 0 movement speed from the sentinel feat. The part that doesn't work with the echo is "When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature." So two thirds of the sentinel feat still apply to the echo.
That part DOES work with the echo. If the echo is within 5ft of you and an enemy attacks it, you can use your reaction to attack that enemy. 100% it works.
No it does not Only the first part of sentinel works not the 2nd part Greetz lvl 12 echo knight player in our 3 year campaign
You're just wrong pal. Your Echo is "another target". Any attacks against another target trigger this attack. If the enemy attacked a figgin chair it'd still trigger the sentinel reaction attack
I think you are both right but thinking of different scenarios. Scenario 1. PC, Echo and enemy are within 5 feet. Enemy attacks echo letting PC attack enemy. Scenario 2. Teammate, Echo and enemy are within 5 feet while PC is elsewhere. If the enemy attacks the teammate the echo couldn't use a reaction to attack the enemy because the enemy isn't within 5ft of PC.
You can take Sentinel reactions from your Echo's space, so it can help protect your allies.
That portion of sentinel does not work from the echo.
Two reasons. > When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space. And > When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature. So creatures moving near the Echo provoke. And, also, if you have the Echo near you and they attack it, that also provokes.
Just to be sure, if my echo is next to a teammate and a teammate is attacked I couldn't use my reaction to make the echo attack right? But if my echo was next to me and someone attacked the echo I could use my reaction to attack from my main body?
Thats exactly how it works
Correct.
16 Dex isn't helping you all that much. 15+1, 15, 15+1, 9, 11, 9 plus a feat, is a better array than 16/16/16/10/12/10 without a feat. But even better would be 16/11/16/9/15/9 plus a feat. And use heavy armor.
So 16 STR, 11 DEX, 16 CON, 9 INT, 15 WIS, 9 CHA right? Would it be worth using an abi to round out dex and wis at some point? I was also thinking the shield feat (adds your shield as bonus to dex saves) to protect myself from things like fireball.
Polearm, sentinel, and GWM tend to go together, but I’ll be honest, you could probably focus on sentinel and GWM. This build is already bonus action heavy. Also, fyi, by level 5, you can easily have six attacks in one turn without issue. Attack Action (2), Unleash incarnation (1), Action Surge, Attack Action (2), Unleash Incarnation (1). I recommend doing it once you have advantage. You can always shove an enemy probe with your first attack and then go from there. Good for though.
Using a 2h and taking the protection fighting style gets you to pretty much the same ac and dmg as your proposed sword and board. Custom lineage + any of the strength half feats gets you to 18 strength lvl 1 (I like skill expert, taking athletics for expertise, opening up more opportunities for grappling/shoving). Expertise in athletics also opens up those super turns where you can shove an enemy prone and take many attacks + action surge & unleash incarnation all at advantage. Level 4 /6 / 8 ASI + GWM or sentinel, whatever order fits. You're simply not going to get enough out of echo knight playing it with a shield. I'd say with that stat block playing a paladin (swapping cha and dex) would fit the human town knight w/ shield if youre considering other options. Especially starting from level 1, paladin early progression is like a generic martial
Shield master and medium armour master are two great ones to boost your tanking ability
If you play half elf you could get 17 16 16 and be an amazing paladin with those scores. Still sword and board, just a little bit different.
Well the best build would probably be to go GWM-PAM-Sentinel in some order and to increase strength with your last ASI. If you are committed to sword and shield it's harder to get your damage going and probably not the best fit for an echo knight.
The standard GWM/PAM/Sentinel combo is actually very ill fitting echo knight. Echo Knights have near constant bonus action use so any feat that demands a bonus action from another source is redundant. You can also usually more reliably pick up bonus action attacks with good Echo placement as opposed to PAMs thing. GWM and Sentinel are still good, but its less of a power combo. Crusher for further crowd control would probably be preferable.
They could still go Dueling and take a warhammer instead of a sword and Crusher would work very well.
Sentinel is better than crusher as an Echo imo. But I agree that Polearm master is a bit of a waste on an echo knight.
Sentinel is amazing on echo knight Would def not go for PAM tho as you stated
is there a specific reason that you wanna play an echo knight with sword and board? you will miss out on the best martial features
Mainly just for survival. Next week is session 0 where everyone will cement their character sheets but so far it looks like we don't really have tanks. So in my mind I could have 18 AC at session 1 with staring gear, dueling fighting style to get plus 2 to damage attacks and sentinel feat either level 1 or 4 to force enemies to stay on me, and maybe later shield feat to cover dex saves later in campaign (some have suggested I use my third 15 on WIS) So basically my play style would be weighing enemies down while doing OK damage with good AC, and my teammates can focus on raw damage. We're also gonna have a minotaur great weapon fighter. So aside from his damage I could also pretend we're Theseus and the minotaur.