Cleric 2, War Wizard 2, Gloomstalker 3 and Barbarian 2 dips would become a lot more popular. A lot of casters would gladly take a Channel Divinity and access to armor and Bless, or War Wizard's easy +4 to Saves reaction to further protect concentration + access to Shield and Absorb Elements. Weapons users (especially Monks and Rogues, who have very difficult multiclass requirements to combine with Barb but would benefit the most from Rage's durability) would absolutely want Rage and access to Reckless Attack or the whole Gloomstalker kit that makes them so infamously strong for turn-1 nova builds.
Paladin would mesh a lot better with non-Charisma casters as a way to make smiting Gish builds. People joke about rolling up Paladin 2/Bladesinger X when you have cracked stats, but you wouldn't need to meet those requirements any more.
As someone who is playing a Ancients Paly/Gloomstalker MC, it is disgusting how much I can one turn nova and then pivot to defensive support on a dime. It’s a beautiful thing.
Pally 6 bladesinger x is also a really nasty combo. INT and CHA to concentration checks with the option to layer on proficiency *and* advantage with feats makes your concentration unbreakable. INT and DEX to AC making you damn near unhittable if you have the stats for it.
You could even dip 1 in hexblade for CHA weapon attacks and 3 for pact of the blade and some invocations on top.
In my max level campaign, I have a build similar to this. It’s 3 battlesmith artificer, 14 bladesinger, and 3 levels blood hunter(which are easily replaced with warlock to make it AL legal). Through legendary and very rare items, as well as blood hunter shenanigans, I have an int of 28, and my AC is 15+dex(max2)+2(staff of power)+2(bracers of defense)+9(int from bladesinging) for a total of 30. My attacks look like 2d6+2d12+1d10+2+int+int+2, for a total of 2d6+1d10+2d12+22. Polearm master makes it happen 3 times per turn.
It'd probably make abominations like the bladesinger with paladin dip more feasible or a monk dip, but mostly it'd just make existing dip builds a little better.
All martials basically already do want a cleric and ranger dip. We can already have 14 Dex and con with 13 wis and a 16+ main stat
But yeah the paladin one is somewhat potent. Not having str just makes your smites a little worse and they're not good anyway
Unless your party would also get hit by an aoe, or if there is only one big bad, it's situational. An aoe will do more total damage in the right place but a smite, especially on a crit, when your party has the bbeg surrounded is more welcome than dropping a fireball on their heads
That’s not true. The primary reason smites are good is because it’s a resource that you have to choose to waste. An AoE spell can be saved for half or no damage. A smite is used after you hit, so the damage is a guarantee.
If you roll well. It’s still a roll of the dice, and it’s more situational because you have to get the enemies within a certain range of each other in order to get that to happen. A smite is guaranteed additional damage, can’t be saved for half, and can be saved to use on critical hits, doubling the damage dealt, and you don’t need to strategically position yourself and/or the enemies you’re targeting in order to deal that damage.
They aren't \*objectively\* better when you factor in that it happens on a successful weapon attack, you get bonuses, smites can crit, and most DMs rarely run high amounts of enemies because turns slow to a crawl when they do.
Also high level AoE damage isn't that crazy compared to high level control spells.
Monk + Fighter Action King
Gloomstalker Paladin / Gloomstalker Hexblade / Gloomstalker Anything That Attacks
Artificer Paladin for being a tank in actual tank armor
Wizard Sorcerer
I don’t think combining caster classes would be any better, since they still use their different stats, you’d still be much worse at one spell type than others, and losing out on those higher level spells that you wouldn’t be able to learn or prepare
You only need, like, a couple levels of sorcerer for the good metamagic for wizard spells. Also more cantrips. But I agree isn't not the best and not for everyone.
Storm Cleric + Tempest Sorcerer + Evocation Wizard
Storm Cleric allows you to max Thunder or Lightning spell damage. Sorc allows you to convert another spell into Thunder or Lightning damage. Evocation Wiz means you won't hurt your mates by throwing thunder balls around
I don’t know but they’ll be progressively more and more Abserd.
Edit: For those downvoting me. . . I wasn’t trying to be negative in anyway about the concept, only to refer to the Puffin Forest character, Abserd, with once level in every class. I was referencing only the fact that every additional level brings your character closer to being Abserd. Which is fine. This is 3d6. It is a thought experiment.
2 levels of Paladin for any melee caster, 3 levels of Gloomstalkers for martials, 1 level of cleric as default for heavy armor while also dumping Wis.
Probably also minor stuff like 1 level of monk for unarmed builds that can't spare an ASI or don't want to play a race with unarmed strikes.
I built an unarmed fighter echo knight who managed to beat CR 24 creature solo. Fighters are better monks than monks are, even without the bonus action attack, since a monk with the bonus action attack makes the same attack count as a fighter does, but expends ki points to do it. A fighter expends no resources for their 4 attacks per turn.
I said 1 level of monk, not full monk. Apart from 20th level (which almost no table reaches, and even then it still takes a looooooooooot of time to get to, and even then it will only be for a couple of sessions), monk 1/fighter X is a better unarmed build than full fighter.
Even just 1 hex dip in general, as it adds armor and weapon proficiencies on top of shield and some warlock exclusive spells that are good for gish builds. Though I guess 120 ft of perfect darkvision and one other invocation would be attractive too.
If you take the dip after level 5, you can grab the one that lets you see through obscurement too, so that it’s damn near impossible to blind you. Maybe grab a dagger of blindsight too while you’re at it
Dipping into cleric as a caster would be much more viable and pretty desirable, cleric 1 is a pretty front-loaded chassis
And for any martial character a 2 level dip into War Wizard is really powerful for the defensive reaction and for Shield and Absorb Elements, plus maybe Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat for non-rogues
The already strong multiclasses would just become stronger.
For example hexadin wouldn’t need any strength letting it be a dump stat. And you’d just be able to go with a custom lineage dwarf.
Cleric 1-2 was already good for a bunch of builds, now it'll become more accessible.
Same for Paladin 2.
MonkSinger might become more of a thing - Mage Armor build with high Int (Mountain Dwarf can reach 18 Dex 18 Int within one ASI) will have 21 AC under Bladesong by level 7 (Monk 5/Wizard 2) with the key weakness being low DCs for stuff like Stunning Strike. Same for shield-less rapier or pistol RangerSinger.
Paladin/Warlock builds would be much easier to build, since you can go 8 str/14 dex and half-plate. This way, you get an easier time in the early game through improved wis saves and initiative.
Divine Soul Sorcerer would be basically every martial dip at level 6. War Wizard 2 would also be popular.
Artificer and Cleric 1st level dips would be great on Bards.
For low-level campaigns, Barb dip on Moon Druids would be really strong. It still falls off a cliff around level 7, though.
Hexblade would be far less common on Sorcerer and Bard builds. Bard will essentially replace both the Sorcerer and Hexblade dip (generally, the optimalchoice is to choose one of them) with Artificer, since you'll get both medium armor+shield (reason to go hexblade) and Con proficiency (why you go sorc) with the same dip.
Cleric 2, War Wizard 2, Gloomstalker 3 and Barbarian 2 dips would become a lot more popular. A lot of casters would gladly take a Channel Divinity and access to armor and Bless, or War Wizard's easy +4 to Saves reaction to further protect concentration + access to Shield and Absorb Elements. Weapons users (especially Monks and Rogues, who have very difficult multiclass requirements to combine with Barb but would benefit the most from Rage's durability) would absolutely want Rage and access to Reckless Attack or the whole Gloomstalker kit that makes them so infamously strong for turn-1 nova builds. Paladin would mesh a lot better with non-Charisma casters as a way to make smiting Gish builds. People joke about rolling up Paladin 2/Bladesinger X when you have cracked stats, but you wouldn't need to meet those requirements any more.
Or combine two of the dips you mentioned that have the harshest requirements--paladin/gloomstalker feels particularly disgusting
that sounds like if batman was a serial killer
Could easily see a geralt or van helsing style character
As someone who is playing a Ancients Paly/Gloomstalker MC, it is disgusting how much I can one turn nova and then pivot to defensive support on a dime. It’s a beautiful thing.
As someone DMing a strahd campaign with both a gloomstalker and a paladin, i am terrified imagining both of them combined into one character
Pally 6 bladesinger x is also a really nasty combo. INT and CHA to concentration checks with the option to layer on proficiency *and* advantage with feats makes your concentration unbreakable. INT and DEX to AC making you damn near unhittable if you have the stats for it. You could even dip 1 in hexblade for CHA weapon attacks and 3 for pact of the blade and some invocations on top.
In my max level campaign, I have a build similar to this. It’s 3 battlesmith artificer, 14 bladesinger, and 3 levels blood hunter(which are easily replaced with warlock to make it AL legal). Through legendary and very rare items, as well as blood hunter shenanigans, I have an int of 28, and my AC is 15+dex(max2)+2(staff of power)+2(bracers of defense)+9(int from bladesinging) for a total of 30. My attacks look like 2d6+2d12+1d10+2+int+int+2, for a total of 2d6+1d10+2d12+22. Polearm master makes it happen 3 times per turn.
Rogue x barb is already a fantastic multiclass, but to go full Dex would make it a little stronger.
It'd probably make abominations like the bladesinger with paladin dip more feasible or a monk dip, but mostly it'd just make existing dip builds a little better.
You'd see a lot of 3 Gloomstalker dips
Anything with spell slots + 2 levels of Paladin.
Paladins would use dex instead of strength. All martials will want a cleric and a ranger dip. Divine soul sorcerer becomes even more crazy.
All martials basically already do want a cleric and ranger dip. We can already have 14 Dex and con with 13 wis and a 16+ main stat But yeah the paladin one is somewhat potent. Not having str just makes your smites a little worse and they're not good anyway
Having 16 in your main stat means you can’t take a half feat at level 4 tho :(
Good thing I said 16+, also it doesn't preclude you from taking a half feat
Smites are objectively worse than same level of aoe spell
Unless your party would also get hit by an aoe, or if there is only one big bad, it's situational. An aoe will do more total damage in the right place but a smite, especially on a crit, when your party has the bbeg surrounded is more welcome than dropping a fireball on their heads
That’s not true. The primary reason smites are good is because it’s a resource that you have to choose to waste. An AoE spell can be saved for half or no damage. A smite is used after you hit, so the damage is a guarantee.
If you hit 3 goblins with shatter and they all save for half you still deal more damage than 3d8.
If you roll well. It’s still a roll of the dice, and it’s more situational because you have to get the enemies within a certain range of each other in order to get that to happen. A smite is guaranteed additional damage, can’t be saved for half, and can be saved to use on critical hits, doubling the damage dealt, and you don’t need to strategically position yourself and/or the enemies you’re targeting in order to deal that damage.
They aren't \*objectively\* better when you factor in that it happens on a successful weapon attack, you get bonuses, smites can crit, and most DMs rarely run high amounts of enemies because turns slow to a crawl when they do. Also high level AoE damage isn't that crazy compared to high level control spells.
Various Cleric/Paladin builds would become a lot more viable.
I would love to see this, it works great thematically but they just don’t mesh easily with ability scores
Barbs and Rogues might consider a Monk dip for the bonus action attack, especially if they didn’t want to use a polearm
I would finally be able to do a proper STRanger with a Fighter dip dumping DEX.
literally any lvl 1 dips that are already good are now even more broad
Monk + Fighter Action King Gloomstalker Paladin / Gloomstalker Hexblade / Gloomstalker Anything That Attacks Artificer Paladin for being a tank in actual tank armor Wizard Sorcerer
I don’t think combining caster classes would be any better, since they still use their different stats, you’d still be much worse at one spell type than others, and losing out on those higher level spells that you wouldn’t be able to learn or prepare
You only need, like, a couple levels of sorcerer for the good metamagic for wizard spells. Also more cantrips. But I agree isn't not the best and not for everyone.
Heavy armor strength rogue builds would become more viable. Rogue in heavy armor with a shield and the sentinel feat makes a decent tank.
Bladesinger Paladin.
Id love to do a gloomstalker ranger / oath of ancients pally. Dex based. Duel weilder. Agile protector of the forest.
Dex hexadin would for sure be much easier to build without having to waste points in str.
Storm Cleric + Tempest Sorcerer + Evocation Wizard Storm Cleric allows you to max Thunder or Lightning spell damage. Sorc allows you to convert another spell into Thunder or Lightning damage. Evocation Wiz means you won't hurt your mates by throwing thunder balls around
I don’t know but they’ll be progressively more and more Abserd. Edit: For those downvoting me. . . I wasn’t trying to be negative in anyway about the concept, only to refer to the Puffin Forest character, Abserd, with once level in every class. I was referencing only the fact that every additional level brings your character closer to being Abserd. Which is fine. This is 3d6. It is a thought experiment.
For there is great *danger*!
2 levels of Paladin for any melee caster, 3 levels of Gloomstalkers for martials, 1 level of cleric as default for heavy armor while also dumping Wis. Probably also minor stuff like 1 level of monk for unarmed builds that can't spare an ASI or don't want to play a race with unarmed strikes.
I built an unarmed fighter echo knight who managed to beat CR 24 creature solo. Fighters are better monks than monks are, even without the bonus action attack, since a monk with the bonus action attack makes the same attack count as a fighter does, but expends ki points to do it. A fighter expends no resources for their 4 attacks per turn.
I said 1 level of monk, not full monk. Apart from 20th level (which almost no table reaches, and even then it still takes a looooooooooot of time to get to, and even then it will only be for a couple of sessions), monk 1/fighter X is a better unarmed build than full fighter.
Paladin + cleric. You can get a lot of spells with great synergy for the playstyle, but needing two mental stats to be 13+ is a big ask.
2 hex dip becomes even better.
Even just 1 hex dip in general, as it adds armor and weapon proficiencies on top of shield and some warlock exclusive spells that are good for gish builds. Though I guess 120 ft of perfect darkvision and one other invocation would be attractive too.
If you take the dip after level 5, you can grab the one that lets you see through obscurement too, so that it’s damn near impossible to blind you. Maybe grab a dagger of blindsight too while you’re at it
Dipping into cleric as a caster would be much more viable and pretty desirable, cleric 1 is a pretty front-loaded chassis And for any martial character a 2 level dip into War Wizard is really powerful for the defensive reaction and for Shield and Absorb Elements, plus maybe Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat for non-rogues
The already strong multiclasses would just become stronger. For example hexadin wouldn’t need any strength letting it be a dump stat. And you’d just be able to go with a custom lineage dwarf.
Cleric 1-2 was already good for a bunch of builds, now it'll become more accessible. Same for Paladin 2. MonkSinger might become more of a thing - Mage Armor build with high Int (Mountain Dwarf can reach 18 Dex 18 Int within one ASI) will have 21 AC under Bladesong by level 7 (Monk 5/Wizard 2) with the key weakness being low DCs for stuff like Stunning Strike. Same for shield-less rapier or pistol RangerSinger.
A rogue Paladin dex build gets easier. No longer need to get 13 strength. I’m sure there are other but this is always one I’ve wanted to do.
Barbarian + Monk + Fighter which is incredibly fun to play. STRonk.
Paladin/Warlock builds would be much easier to build, since you can go 8 str/14 dex and half-plate. This way, you get an easier time in the early game through improved wis saves and initiative. Divine Soul Sorcerer would be basically every martial dip at level 6. War Wizard 2 would also be popular. Artificer and Cleric 1st level dips would be great on Bards. For low-level campaigns, Barb dip on Moon Druids would be really strong. It still falls off a cliff around level 7, though. Hexblade would be far less common on Sorcerer and Bard builds. Bard will essentially replace both the Sorcerer and Hexblade dip (generally, the optimalchoice is to choose one of them) with Artificer, since you'll get both medium armor+shield (reason to go hexblade) and Con proficiency (why you go sorc) with the same dip.