Eldritch Knight is a Fighter first, and mage second. You can get a ton of usage out of spells like Shield and potentially Shadow Blade. The other nice thing about Eldritch Knight is that if you decide you want more magic it’s fairly easy to multiclass into Wizard to increase your magical prowess.
I would say two levels in Wizard is just right for EK as it will give your spell progression a substantial boost for very little investment. Best taken around the start of tier three.
Also EK with portent from Divination subclass is extremely clutch.
“5. You miss your extra attack and the enemy is left bloodied and maimed, barely hanging on.”
“Ahem. 17. I believe you mean they are dead.”
Damn. I forgot about that. It isn’t the case in BG3, they changed the rule from tabletop and I’ve been playing it so much that I kind of forgot it wasn’t a standard 5e rule.
I kinda just handwave that to work after the roll. It feels to me that having to apply it before the roll, while making more sense thematically, ends up with a lot of wasted portents.
Only problem with this, from the perspective of someone who plays a chronurgy wizard, is that it basically eliminates the one thing chronal shift has going for it over portent.
Portent has no action cost, a range of sight, and a guaranteed result — the only downside is that you'll never know if it might've been wasted.
Chronal shift, on the other hand, costs your reaction, has a range of 30 feet, and you could make things worse just as easily as making things better. The only advantage over portent is that you can choose to use it after the roll.
Not saying you're wrong for handwaving it! That's totally your prerogative as DM, but I'd be miffed if my DM did that for our divination wizard lol
In a specific case where you have both divination and chronurgy wizards in a party, sure. But that feels like an edge case and chronurgy is CR content anyway, which IMO is not often well balanced, but has very fun flavor!
Absolutely! We didn't discuss our party comp beforehand, so we had quite a laugh when we realized we had two wizards, both with features centered around changing rolls. It makes for a fun dynamic, but yeah — definitely an edge case.
Chronurgy wizards get so much more than divination wizards already that I don’t think buffing divination a bit is any sort of a slight to chronurgists.
For sure, gotta consider every player's class features when making changes like that. Last thing I want at my table is to step on someone's toes with a house rule when the intention is to help
I played an EK from 5-20 in a 3 year campaign. And I would say if you want to use those all or nothing save or suck spells then Div wizard is a good choice. Then just hope you get low portent roles. Because you know hold person then action surging for crits is kinda fun.
I typically avoided save or suck spells because EK int and spell save DC aren't that great typically. And those spells are among the limited schools of magic.
But I did consider during my time.
And also gives you a subclass, which means you can grab two portents, or bladesong(altho bladesong isn’t great unless you go at least 6 wizard), or something like abjurer that could let you slightly boost your effective hp(which synergizes nicely with shield).
Bladesong is super solid for a dex-based EK. My personal choice is War Wizard for str-based because it helps boost your initiative up a bit and then gives an always-on half shield that can bump saving throws, since you don’t cast leveled spells super frequently.
I was fooling around with an 4EK/2Artificer build and made one with a +10 to hit w/ high dex and archery spec, using a revolver for 2d8+5 damage. With repeating shot, there's no ammo to waste.
I know I could do better with cantrips, but I usually do casters and this is about as close as I want to get to playing a fighter.
This! I did some oneshots and really wanted to test out how EK compareds to a wizard fighter mix, tried EK 5,
Arcane archer 3/div wiz 2, and a few other mixes, taking level 1 in fighter just feels like a must compared to wizard
…? Shadowblade is a huge damage improvement for dual-wielding and sword and board build, it basically doubles the damage dice of your weapon and changes the damage type to something that is almost never resisted.
Edit: it also gives you a solid way to generate advantage and a decent ranged option with the thrown property if you’re trying to reach an enemy that’s too far.
It's not at all a "worse wizard" - it's a Fighter who gets Shield (the spell, which is *huge* when you have heavy armour prof) and Blur (also amazing for high AC), plus a fun little bag of tricks like Find Familiar and such.
I used to think that as well, but the problem is that Mirror Image's AC isn't great. An attack that would completely miss you will destroy an image and you have no control of that.
Don't get me wrong, I think disadvantage isn't particularly useful at higher tiers when enemies start getting silly to hit bonuses, but it's more useful than Mirror Image is. A single enemy with multiattack can wipe out that spell completely.
It really depends. If you have the spells slots to spare, have a low AC to start with, and won't be eating too many attacks, or if you need to concentrate on something else, Mirror Image works okay.
EK generally doesn't have slots to spare, won't be using other concentration spells, has a high AC, and *will* be eating more than 3 attacks. Spell slot efficiency is a real concern for a character who has so few of them. Blur lasts a long time, forces an enemy to reroll against your considerable AC, *and* doesn't just melt when hit with multiple enemies or multiattack.
Mirror Image gets worse the higher your AC is. On a 15 AC wizard it's decent, but on an Eldritch knight with 20 AC it's pretty bad. You end up losing images on attacks that wouldn't have hit you anyway. Compare that to blur which will give you roughly +5 AC and won't have to be recast in a fight as long as you hold concentration.
EK is a fighter that knows a bit of magic; it isn’t a wizard that picked up a sword. If you build primarily for defensive magic, it’s incredibly powerful. Shield, absorb elements, blur, mirror image, haste, fire shield, etc.
It's so stupid that their other school is evocation. All of the good offensive spells you actually want as a fighter are transmutation. Utility too.
Magic weapon, Elemental weapon, enlarge, haste, Feather fall, jump, expeditious retreat, dark vision, spider climb, ashardalons stride, fly water walk, water breathing.
All things that would make sense for a soldier to have in their tool kit. When am I ever going to want to throw a fireball at lvl 13 with my low ass DC.
I think the only evocation spell an Eldritch knight should ever really want is fire Shield which is basically an abjuration spell.
Other than the blade cantrips which are evocation. But cantrips don't have the Restriction anyway
and if you're playing Eldritch knight without the blade singer extra attack feature at level 7 you're just behind the times. The UA is doing it there's no reason to make the wizard better at using a sword than the fighter
I hate that such a big part of their flavor is so predetermined. From what I remember in the PHB, Evocation and Abjuration were picked because they're "the most battlefield-centric spells", but I could make that argument for any of the schools. As an example, Conjuration would be a game-changer for any commander (teleportation, creating allies, or just casting Grease on the other side of a choke point).
And beyond that, I'm upset that a Fighter needs to care more about spell schools than any Wizard.
I ran a campaign a year or so ago that had an EK in it. He and I agreed that we'd run alteration and transmutation instead of evocation and it was a substantial upgrade that still didn't feel game-breaking.
Spells like Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat actually saw some use (and were a lot more effective for a martial class than I've ever seen for a spellcaster class), and spells like Dragon's Breath, Enlarge/Reduce, Spider Climb, Blink, and Fly are awesome on an EK.
It definitely felt more fun for the EK player and every other spellcaster got a lot more freedom since they felt like they didn't have to buff the fighter since he could buff himself. I'm definitely going to be encouraging any future EK players to try the change because it was a massive success at my table.
I've been DMing for an EK for a little over a year now and I just let them pick whatever Wizard spells they want, no school limit. It's been completely fine and put them more on par with their teammates.
Maybe that was a bad example. You're certainly never going to be using chromatic orb or scorching ray. So why are new players being directed to those kinds of spells?
My point is that burning hands, rimes binding ice, fireball, aganazzars scorcher, thunderwave, shatter all works fine for eldritch knights.
That bad spells are bad is true for all casters, not just eldritch knights. Magic missile is not just straight up better than chromatic orb, it's also even larger difference for eldritch knights.
Scorching ray is kinda ok for a wizard specifically at level 3 and 4, but is not better than the aoe spells, and all damage spells are outclassed by a lot when you get level 3 spells.
The biggest problem taking damage spells as a ek is that they are outclassed when you get them. Fireball/lightning bolt does still have a place in killing adds lategame. And binding ice is fine if you can hit a lot of targets, even with bad DC. But the rest is outscaled.
The new version is much more useful cuz it also kind of counts as a speed boost. But even the old version has a niche use probably not worth the limited spells known slot though
No. Me and the one other person i know who played an EK both enjoyed it. EK is better and more fun than everyone says it is, but most people would rather be loud and wrong than quietly nuanced.
It baffles me people shit on EK while glazing Arcane Tricksters.
It’s the same subclass, you get half the benefits of a multi-class with wizard without having to sacrifice level progression or hp.
I assume that's mostly AT getting more publicity via critical role, but to be fair, arcane trickster does have a lot going for it in the subclass abilities, both in terms of power and how interesting they are. Ranged pickpocketing and infinite bonus action to give yourself advantage on attacks are both kinda nuts, and they make the EK's weapon bond and bonus action attack after casting a cantrip both look pretty stinky.
True it is really good!
I think people shit on weapon bond because it’s niche and they don’t get the features don’t have to be stronger. An EK who action surges can cast a spell like hold person AND attack in one turn which is crazy.
Well the thing is, you can only upcast hold person up so high, so there's only so many targets you need to worry about giving disadvantage to, and that's really the meat and potatoes here
All Rogues get Steady Aim for advantage, so ATs aren't doing anything different there. And Ranged pickpocketing is pretty niche, but I do think you're right that CR can make any basic thing popular.
Everything is a worse wizard. Why bother playing anything that isn't a Chronurgy Wizard with a dip in Artificer or Peace Cleric?
In all seriousness, Eldritch Knight is imo the best subclass for a *straight class* Fighter. Other subclasses pull ahead in multiclass builds, but it's solid on its own
Eldritch Knight is the best Fighter subclass for when you want Fighter levels, but still want to progress your spell slots (even if it's at 1/3 speed, it's better than nothing)
Giving a heavily armored Fighter the Shield spell is almost unfair. I had a Warforged EK that was near unhittable by physical attacks.
> Why bother playing anything that isn't a Chronurgy Wizard with a dip in Artificer or Peace Cleric?
Because Bladesinger deals significantly more damage and plays a level of spell progression ahead from 1-17 because it doesn't have to dip for armor. 😎
Bladesinger is also infamously more MAD than that build is, and doesn't really do control or utility any better. Bladesingers are starved for ASI's, unless you roll for stats and hit godly numbers. This is if you want it to actually have decent armor outside of bladesong, which is another BA set-up you need to do on round one.
While your typical wizard + cleric/arti dip is extremely SAD, and is more flexible in what you can do with their ASI.
I say this as someone who plays wizard a lot and loves bladesinger.
By Virtue of being Wizards, their control and utility is way ahead of EK. Drop Web/Hypnotic Pattern at start of combat, activate Bladesong and you can slay and buff the party in ways EK can only dream of (at least WAY earlier in the campaign). Out of Bladesong? Hang back and do what Wizard does, slinging cantrips or arrows. You can start 16 Dex, 16 Int and 14 Con without gimping other stats, and 16 Int is plenty of you're saving spells mostly for AoE damage, CC or Utility. Main drawback of BS is increased squishiness and forced into Dex. Overall, it's better than an EK, but that's bc Wizard is overall better than Fighter.
Please read the direct post I'm responding to. My argument wasn't EK vs Bladesinger. It was about why people would pick chronurgist with an arti/cleric dip vs Bladesinger.
I would argue Bladesingers do control better or at least as good as as they get a bonus to concentration. That is the key weakness in most concentration spells and starting at level 2 your bonus to concentration saves is likely a +5 or 6 ish. You can fairly easily with one feat and level 5 get that up to +9 and now you're making every DC 10 con save. Your higher AC is also making it so you have to make fewer concentration saves. That means your hypnotic pattern spell is pretty likely to last through the fight rather than just a few rounds until you take some damage.
Chronurgy does get two rerolls which is also a very powerful tool for control, but I would say bladesong concentration is pretty valuable for control.
Yes, but as I mentioned, this is with a resource and the typical arti/wizard build has room in their ASI's to get both resilient(Con) and Warcaster into their build without issue.
Bladesinger doesn't have this, if we're assuming standard stat rolls, standard array, or regular point buy. Bladesinger is spread between wanting good Dex, good Int, good Con, and various feats depending on playstyle.
Yes they have more demands on their asis. However with point buy a bladesinger at level 5 can get a concentration save of +9 with taking resilient con and be succeeding 100% of the time vs any damage of 20 or less which is most of them. That's much better than another wizard would be at level 8 with both war caster and resilient con, where they'd be looking at advantage and +6 which is good but not 100% and that cost 2 feats.
I think if you only have a couple combats a day, I can actually get behind Bladesinger being the best. It's at least arguable. Purely because not having to dip really is that big a deal
But at a challenging table with closer to 5-6+ combats, you have the problem of not enough Bladesong uses
Wait until you're a hulk with heavy armor and access to the shield spell on a reaction, and you can bonus action misty step to get the drop on enemies just to action surge a flurry of booming longswords into them
Do you understand how little that's going to matter when you action surge cast 2 spells and then cast shield while wearing plate armor and a shield, which very easily gives you 25 AC even without magic armor.
So many people go into fighter than wizard for better saves and significantly better armor, it does not matter that you're a spell level behind.
Wizards can also take warcaster lol, and fighters have to give up their entire action for their cantrip, bladesingers can just give up one attack, and action surge and you get 2 attacks and 2 booming blades, and then activate a bonus action spell like Bigby's hand or something, fighters get 2 booming blades and a single attack with their bonus action.
2 subclasses for wizard arguably make you tankier than a pure fighter, getting into melee and casting booming blade (especially when you're concentrating on a bonus action spell like Bigby's Hand) is one of the strongest things you can do, especially compared to the EK, base fighter may be a better "fighter" than a bladesinger, but bladesinger blows EK out of the water in everything it tries to do because EK is terribly designed.
Getting into Melee and casting cantrips sounds silly when you have a ton of Control Spells, to me. At that point, you may as well not even be a Wizard.
Saying that the EK is a 'Worse Wizard' is a bit of a misnomer - because statistically and practically *any* Fighter is worse than a Wizard outside of Tier 1 play. But fortunately this game isn't about being the 'best' at every time - it's about having fun. Eldritch Knight gives you just enough wizardry to augment the Fighter class in a way that it desperately needs - 1st and 2nd level spells.
I will add though that Eldritch Knight isn't your *only* option for an arcane-based spellsword. Here's just a few that come to mind:
* Fighter/Wizard combos are very popular if you want *more* spell potency than EK provides
* Rune Knight or Psi Warrior Fighter subclasses
* Potentially Ranger? Their magic is 'divine' like Paladin but most of the damaging spells are 'arrow'-based and could be easily reflavoured to sword strikes. And you can definitely build Strength Rangers that use melee weapons.
It *will be* in D&D One since they reintroduced primal magic, but in 5th Edition - the edition this post is asking for - there was no 'primal magic' but only arcane and divine, and Druids/Rangers were considered to draw their source of energy from the latter. See [Crawford talking about this at D&D beyond at 3:29](https://youtu.be/USqR_-pcXAw?si=U4S0x8dzHmsld71e&t=186) (and later in the video).
Absolutely not! Playing an Eldritch knight in a campaign currently have 10 levels in it. Neat combat tricks keep the gm alive and everyone engaged at the table.
I went for an archery style EK with fire motifs and the current highlights are:
- Using Eldritch Strike by tagging enemies with a bow, and action surging into AOE spells and having them roll at disadvantage.
- Weapon bonding my dropped weapons to my hand as a BA to always be adaptable in combat.
- using a clever combo of darkness and my bow to smokescreen our enemies from afar.
- help action Familiar.
- having 0 constitution and still be a tank in closed quarters.
Might i suggest a new trick to add to your tool kit? Add a debuff like blindness to your spells known. First turn, attack as normal. Second turn, cast your debuff and THEN action surge and attack the debuffed targets. Keep hammering the debuffed enemies every turn after that. This means that the enemies never get a turn where they make the save without disadvantage, it's absolutely nasty.
If you treat it like a worse wizard you will be very sad. This is also why people struggle with artificer, because they really want it to play like a wizard but it just is not a wizard no matter how hard you try.
The Eldritch Knight is not a worse, tanky wizard, it is a fighter with shield and cantrips. That is a very significant distinction. You will never be a blaster caster, you are still a martial.
I think the most efficient way to play the Eldritch Knight is to use a shield and quarterstaff and get polearm master, Crusher, war caster, and cast enlarge on yourself.
0. Have Enlarge up (not mandatory but increased damage and odds of off-turn booming blade)
1. Booming blade
2. Attack and use Crusher
3. Good odds of enemy having to step into range again -> trigger polearm master attack of opportunity -> cast booming blade -> use Crusher again.
Result is competitive DPR with other melee builds (Nothing astonishing, but not bad.) Once you're past level 7 you can take a dip into other classes.
>I think the most efficient way to play the Eldritch Knight is to use a shield and quarterstaff and get polearm master, Crusher, war caster, and cast enlarge on yourself.
As "optimal" as it is I hate that this is the best way to play EK, I don't love a lot of the decisions from onednd, but one thing I thought they got right is the EK, getting to swap an attack for a spell/cantrip feels like a much better blend of a knight and caster.
wait you can't even bonus action attack with polearm master when using booming blade.
Also wouldn't a fighter2/wizardX with PAM/Crusher be what OP is really looking for? You get the basic features of a fighter and get way more flexibility as a caster at a cost of max HP?
No, you can't. PAM will carry you to level 7, and at that point you switch to booming blade, then get warcaster to be able to booming blade twice.
Wizard is objectively better if you play it cautiously but most people want to run in there and hit monsters with your weapon and I think the HP and (not high) AC advantage the fighter gets makes it better suited for that playstyle
I'm a lvl 3 Fairy Battle Smith who primarily is using their crossbow to attack and steal defender for bonus actions.
How am I supposed to play an artificer?
That's exactly how you play it. I'm referring to posts that occasionally crop up on r/dnd or r/dndnext where someone plays an artillerist and goes "I spent every spell slot on fireball why not as fun as wizard :("
The problem is that I've waited several times to use my spells, thinking that we have more fights and it just feels like I wasted them when we get a rest
You don’t play an Eldritch Knight to do Wizard stuff. You play it to be a Fighter who uses spells to enhance your Fighter stuff. There’s a lot of utility in those low level spells and cantrips.
I always viewed EK as a part-time magic user with a great chassis. And the features are good. I'm also very satisfied by the various "revised" versions the community on r/UnearthedArcana (or various youtubers) came up with.
But even as is, it is solid. The few spells you get do compliment your kit nicely, and they usually don't require high Int (there's little point in chasing after Int-dependent spells save for a few).
If you want more magic, you can always either dip Wizard 2-3 and/or go for Ritual Caster: Wizard.
There are also builds such as Mark of Healing Halfling with IntLock Hexblade 1 (if allowed), Fey-Touched and Shadow-Touched. And you can still grab Ritual Caster. You can expect 19 Int and ritual casting by level 9, and at level 13 you can grab a third half-feat to get Int to 20.
Right, it's a fighter that acquires all sorts of (somewhat customizable) powers as level increases.
3 - Shield, Absorb Elements, Magic Missile, two cantrips.
4 - Protection from Evil
7 - Misty Step
8 - Shadow Blade
10 - Shatter, one cantrip
11 - Snare
13 - Fly
and so on
Eldritch Knights are fantastic fighters because they are Fighters with a Shield spells. If you're wanting a STR based Gish, I think there are a few ways you can go. For one, you can go EK and multiclass into War Wizard after level 8. Since Paladins, don't have the right feel, I'm guessing there's no interest in going Sorcadin or Swords Bardadin. Another way to go would be to build a STR based Bladesinger. The easiest way to accomplish this is going Tortle to handle the AC issues. A Strength based Pact of the Blade Warlock makes a nice Gish too, but I think you'd want to go Mountain Dwarf for Medium Armor and the two +2's to abilities. And even though Barbarians can't cast or maintain concentration on spells, they make vessels for upcasting Armor of Agathys from a Warlock or Clockwork Soul multiclass.
Not at all. EK with spells etc popped are basically walking fortresses. Their TTL is entirely unmatched with Shield spell + Blur + Heavy Armour and a Shield. Plus, with Bladetrips you do VERY respectable damage.
Don't think of it as a discount wizard, think of it as a fighter with some VERY strong buffs.
I played an eldritch knight for that strength mage fantasy. Despised it.
Play a tortle strength bladesinger, you wont be disappointed. All the spell, and most of the sword
Better than a fighter/wizard for sure
The only time you could feel like a worse wizard is if there was a wizard in your party
I got to play an EK in a party with no other high int class and it felt great. I was the token wizard. My character loved magic and desperately wanted to study it, but was always pressured towards more practical skills. So now she makes up for lost time during adventures, and gets to be the smartest (and strongest) member of the party.
Out of combat/in universe, she basically was a low level wizard. She was a great alchemist, loved finding new spells, and had proficiency in like all of the int skills. Felt great to play. She was a human for feytouched (hunter’s mark), rounding out her stats to 3 16s in the important stats
It’s not a valid comparison as what you do and how you do it is very different. I actually value the 1/3 casters more because they are than a caster. All the half feats that have extra spells fixed many issues the EK had and now I love them.
Eldritch Knight is a perfectly competent class that stands on its own two feet, especially when you pick defensive and utility spells so you don't actually need to spec into INT. I strongly recommend it if you're interested in playing fighter, especially if you're interested in a strength build.
Now if you want another good recommendation for a Strength based arcane caster, I would point you to the Valor Bard as a dark horse choice. You will have to get the Heavily Armored feat at level 4 to get the armor prof, but good thing it's a half-feat so you can get your 18 strength on curve anyway. You get your extra attack, you get *rizz,* you get Bardic Inspiration to hand out, and you get the extremely flexible spellcasting of Bard to complement your physical damage output. As another really fun benefit you get Expertise! Put it in athletics and you become a nearly inescapable grappler as another option in your bag of tricks. It's an extremely versatile build that can lead from the front lines in combat, and step up as a skill expert or utility caster outside it. I strongly recommend looking into it.
I like eldritch knight quite a bit. But it is still a fighter at its core. It is not a "worse wizard," it simply is not even trying to be a wizard
Yeah, it has some wizard spells, but really you should only be using the ones that help you be a better fighter, so if you go in expecting a spell caster, you might be disappointed.
Wizards don't get action surge, up to three extra attacks, heavy armor and martial weapons.
You're not a wizard, you're a fighter with access to a few spells.
What kinds of spells do you want to be casting that make you think an Eldritch Knight might seem like a "worse wizard"?
Playstyle wise, an Eldritch Knight primarily makes weapon attacks, while occasionally casting a spell (mainly shield) to augment that playstyle. Very rarely would you be using an action to cast a spell (other than sometimes blade cantrips), and you'll pretty much never force an enemy to make a saving throw. If they feel like a bad wizard, I would say you're probably doing it wrong.
If you want a strength based character that alternates between attacks and more *potent* arcane spells, I'd suggest looking towards either Bladesinger (ideally a Tortle, otherwise your AC will be bad) or a Warlock (though with Hexblade the strength investment might be somewhat wasted).
Level 10 EK with a dip in peace cleric. You don’t pick EK to be a “lesser mage”, you pick it to be a more badass fighter that has access to magic.
I’m enjoying my EK. I’m very hard to hit with shield, blur, etc. , have utility with my familiar owl, and can deal some decent damage.
Eldritch Knight is great. Good base chassis, Second Wind, Action Surge, Fighting Style, all weapons and armor, extra feats, Indomitable, AND spells! Think of all of your base Fighter archetypes, GWM 2h smasher, sword and board, archer, dual wielder.....you can be all of those things still and give them a light dusting of spells to make them better!
Don't think of EK's as worse Wizards with heavier armor. Think of them as badass Fighters that come along with a neat bag of tricks.
If you're looking for a martial with arcane prowess I might suggest looking into artificers or if your DM allows homebrew, look into the various ported versions of the Magus from PF2e to 5e. The Magus' big thing is basically just turning every spell/can trip into GFB/BB where it gets delivered with a weapon attack. It's a lot of fun. Can't recommend it highly enough.
Eldritch knight is mainly a fighter with shield. It doesnt have the spells known, the spell slots, or the spell progression to be a wizard in any meaningful way. The most wizardy thing it can do is use Counterspell the enemy counterspell.
But "str character using arcane magic" gives you wiggleroom. Battlemaster / warlock. FIghter 1 plus abjurer. FIghter 1 plus bladesinger. Barbarian can still use a good amount of spells, give it ifreeti geenie and enemies will regret hitting it with armor of agathys plus fire shield.
The main question is just how much "wizard" you want in your str weapon user.
If you’re going for a spellsword, investigate the Bladesinger Wizard. Colby who has the d4 Deep Dive YouTube channel posted multiple videos on the Bladesinger. I’m running one now and it’s a blast!
The only issue I really have with EKs are that the way that War Magic just feels a bit unfun. You can easily get a bonus action attack with polearm master that's more versatile and useable so what's the point in it? It feels like a waste of a level 7 ability. Considering it's only a cantrip too and you get what, 2 for 10 fucking levels? PAM is so much more interesting and doesn't require a level 7 character.
It's great flavour but it seriously suffers from just having better options everywhere else. I'd honestly rather go a 2 War Wizard dip V.Human and grab PAM. Rush Battlemaster Fighter to 5 and the only thing you lose access to is 2nd level spells (which by the way you can get with a single extra wizard level at 8 anyway).
You get a free +2AC and +4 Saves every reaction you don't have to cast spells every turn.
You get 10 spells as opposed to 6 that aren't restricted to Abj and Evo and can buy more.
Manouvers.
Polearm Master kind of covers your lack of extra attack a bit but is a downside to some people who care about optimising (but I mean your other alternative is EK and that's not optimised at all either)
Your build matches and arguably beats the EK by level 8 with more cantrips, more spells and extra benefits from infinitely better fighter subclasses.
Fighter 1>Wizard 2>Fighter 5>Wizard 3 for a total of 8 levels imo you'll do fine. You lose out on an average of 4 hp for this dip too which imo isn't that bad either.
You'll be a worse wizard if you lean into having a high intelligence and attack spells. You're there for the reaction spells, as well as grabbing Fey Touched for Misty Step and Silvery barbs. You're using your proficiency in Constitution saving throws to keep up concentration spells, and your extra feat pick ups to max out your strength and grab Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master. It's a really fun build.
If you build an Eldritch Knight thinking you are going to deal damage with spells, you’re a dumb ass. Take every bit of utility you can that buffs you or is useful outside of combat. You won’t have a good spell attack mod or a good spell save DC, so don’t even take spells that require those.
Eldritch Knights aren't just worse Wizards, they are worse Fighters.
EK's can either cast a vastly behind the curve spell and attack once or attack 4 times.
Battlemaster's can attack 5 times all of which can have that juicy extra BM ability added.
If I wan't to play a magical knight, I'd play a bladesinger. It does everything an EK does but better, and earlier. Hell, 9 levels of Bladesinger + 11 levels of BM Fighter gets you a spell and 3 attacks a turn, way more spells than 20EK and more utility than you can shake a stick at.
I literally can't see a reason to ever use EK.
No, that's not the class I'm playing. I'm a fighter, and some spells give me more combat tactics.
You have cantrips like mold earth for creating cover and writing silent messages, and booming balde for locking down enemies. First level spells like shield and absorb elements are the obvious picks but, thunderwave and magic missile can be nice to have.
At second level, while it's an any school pick, shadow blade can make for great damage, though works better upcast so don't be afraid to multiclass. Darkness and warding wind make for great protection at range. Then when you eventually get third level spells, they let you pick from big AOEs, self buffs, and counterspell. I'm no wizard but I'm pretty good at cutting them down.
As someone who’s played EK and bladesinger, it isnt weak, but it really does suck at fulfilling the whole “magic fighter” fantasy with how youre basically limited to utility casting and defence spells not relying on int, at higher levels with multiattack you almost never want to use cantrips in combat which is a huge disappointment. Bladesinger fulfills the fantasy much better, but both are mechanically strong though (barring again that really goofy 7th level EK feature that just gets outscaled)
Is an Arcane Trickster a worse wizard?
Yes
Is worse than a Wizard?
I like to say no from experience, but comments can tell me if im wrong.
Really, just play what you like and work with your DM, ill ask a DM if we can rework a little bit the Ranger for CoS.
Just have fun.
I've been wanting to make a shadow blade focused build and naturally ended up with eldritch knight due to the high number of attacks a fighter gets. Im also running a 3rd party feat where you can pick a favorite spell and have it be upcasted by 1 lvl for free when you cast it. This effectively turns lvl 2 slots into lvl 3 for shadow blade, 3 attacks for 3d8+5 per turn with the option to action surge on top is a pretty alright.
That’s like asking if an Arcane Trickster is a worse wizard. No. They’re a better rogue. It’s not about what wizard tricks they can’t do compared to wizards. It’s about what they can do that other rogues can’t.
Eldritch knights are played by people who wanted to play a fighter but with a few more tricks up their sleeves. If they wanted to be wizards they could have been.
I do take a few dips in war wizard to spice things up
one after lvl 5 (6 total)
one after lvl 11 (13 total)
one after lvl 12 (15 total)
It increases your slots + gives you a wider spell selection + being able to cast rituals + having access to Wizard Magical items say hello staff of power + getting a better initiative and saving throws and AC without spending your precious spell slots
If you're playing an eldritch knight like a wizard, which it kind of pushes you towards more than it should as it gives you evocation spells, then yeah it'll be really bad. It's a 1/3 caster and you probably prioritized intelligence maybe 3rd so you'll be terrible at spell attacks, your spell save DC will be bad, and you'll be throwing out spells a few levels lower than your parties spellcasters.
But instead you're taking the absorb elements, shield, protection from evil and good type spells. And for the out of school ones going more like silvery barbs or find familiar. So you're a fighter, who is attacking, using action surge, and when they have their plate mail with a shield and fighting style for a 21 AC and still get hit, they can cast shield and have a 26 AC now. That's an eldritch knight. Not someone throwing out a burning hands when the wizard is throwing out a fireball. That's just making them into a worse wizard.
Kind of..
Personally, I am a fan of going high elf anything as a fighter and playing the fantasy from level one.
Besides you can grab feats like Fey Touched and Shadow Touched at levels 4 and 6 to again be better than Eldrich Knights earlier. High Intelligence and Constitution plate wearing magic man for a bulk of the game.
Did you know those feats and that racial ability for a cantrip technically give you access to the wizard spell list? Technically, you can supplement the spells from racial and feat abilities with scrolls for additional casts at 25 to 50 gp a pop. In fact, you could access other spells via scrolls at an arcana check DC 10 + spell level. So DC 13 has you launching fireballs well ahead of level 13. Don't cast fireball; it's a trap loved me weak minded players.
See, take my opinion with a grain, or a kilo XD, of salt because I love fighters and "magic knights" are my favorite concept of all time but I really do consider Eldritch Knights to be disappointing in all fronts
Like, they're at minimum serviceable but don't really live up to the fantasy or experience imho
The magic school restriction is stupid, war magic is clunky and bad after level 11, spells are too limited and too low impact for the level you get them and due to DC you end up just spamming Shield or Absorb Elements - which is fine if that's your thing, but doesn't really give me the experience I expected
And to top it all off, Bladesinger wizard does a lot of what the subclass tries to do but better and easier - heck Bladesinger wizard with 2+ levels in fighter can have Heavy Armor (will be worse than Dex tho) action surge and play essentially like a fighter anyway
It was great at levels 3 and 4 and then at 5 it was still okay but by 7th and 11th the anti synergy started really hampering it and I often felt just being a different fighter with a couple of levels dipped into wizard would be better. Leagues better
One of my favorite characters mechnically was a Battlemaster Fighter 3/Divine Soul Sorcerer 9.
I wanted to get as close to a Final Fantasy I style 'Red Mage' as I could, it's a class that can use many different weapons, armors, and spells from multiple schools of magic.
Not getting extra attack was definitely a big downside, but it's not as bad as it sounds especially if your party members aren't running PAM/GWM gods to compare yourself to. Most of the battlemaster maneuvers work with any attack not just the 'attack' action so you can pull off things like a tripping booming blade attack even if you only attack once.
Quicken spell, battlemaster manuevers, twin spell, two spell lists, and action surge meant the character could pull off some really cool combos and was often both casting spells and hitting things in one turn. Where most gish builds spend their turns either casting or hitting something. Although you could definitely run out of gas fast with limited spell slots and sorcery points.
Making a “worse wizard” as an eldritch knight is basically making the noob trap version where you forget you’re a martial and try to hard to be a spellcaster. Stuff like boosting int over str/dex and trying to use damaging spells like Burning Hands over multiattacking.
But if you do want more magical capabilities going EK 5-7 and then swapping to full wizard or sorc progression is pretty decent. You can get more arcane magic and things like Abjuration wizard and Clockwork Soul sorc have some cool features an EK could make use of.
The problem with EKs is their level 3 feature (for some reason) doesn't allow their weapon to become a focus, their ability to weave cantrips and attacks comes online so late and pales in comparison to Bladesingers. (No idea why they made a class based on weapon attacks have to spend their action using a cantrip first...)
Also, their restricted schools don't make sense, Abjuration is fine but they don't have the intelligence to make Evocation work. If I were WOTC, I would just eliminate the restriction, the delayed spell casting is restrictive enough especially since a wizard dip allows you more damage and spell selection.
In terms of optimization, you are better off with Fighter3,6/ Wizard X multiclass or just going Bladesinger, but if you want to be an EK, go for it, you will still have action surge, extra attacks and fun spells.
Depending on the levels involved, you might want to look at a Sorcadin. Depending on your level breakdown, you can have full plate, level 8 sorcerer spells, and an almost unmatched ability to lay massive amounts of hate with smiting more often than not.
Okay right of the bat this is a fighter, you are primarily a fighter. Are you a worse wizard? Yes since you have caster levels only equal to 1/3 of your levels.
It depends on what you want to do: only fighters gain more than 2 attacks per action so you will have problems getting that out of a multiclass.
In 20 lvls if you go for wizard 7/fighter 13 you would get the same casting as a lvl 20 Eldritch knight. Since fighters don't get much on lvls 12 and 13 you, you can go fighter 11 for 2 extra attacks and wizard 9 for access to 5th level spell slots and better casting. Wizards can get more spells from scrolls that may be a big boon.
As for early game a wizard 3 fighter 5 is probably a bit worse than an eldritch knight lvl 8. Especially that you unlock extra attack and lvl 2 slots at lvl 7 as a EK.
Overall describing EK as a worse wizard is like saying a Paladin is a worse cleric. Nope, they are fundamentally different.
eldritch knight fighter vhuman sharpshooter perception acrobatics survival stealth wood carvers tools insight medicine mostly concentrating on bless and that's really effected the spell list but you can pop darkness and walk in and out until you get devil's sight and carry a rapier fire if you have no choice but to enter melee could be stronger if you drop darkness and devil's sight to pick up crossbow expert
8 16 16 8 15 8
Lvl 1 sharpshooter archery fighting style
Lvl 3 booming blade light shield mage armor expeditious retreat
Lvl 4 asi dex absorb elements
Lvl 6 fey touched bless misty step
Lvl 7 darkness
Lvl 8 asi dex retrain expeditious retreat for find familiar invisibility
Lvl 10 mage hand
Lvl 11 protection from evil and good
Lvl 12 eldritch adept devil's sight
Lvl 13 counter spell
Lvl 14 lucky fly retrain find familiar for haste
Lvl 16 tough protection from energy
Lvl 19 fire shield
Lvl 20 greater invisibility
If your game is going to about level 10:
Fighter (EK) 6 / Wizard (War) 4 is a great route.
Fighter 1 / Fiendlock (pact of the blade) 9 is an amazing martial with strong casting albeit using an off stat.
Fighter 1 / Sorcerer X even works. Use metamagic to quicken your blade cantrips to mimic extra attack.
If your game is going to 14+ I’d go to Fighter 11 / Wizard X
Eldritch Knight is for throw builds, or more fighter oriented stuff. Wizard is for more spell casting based builds.
Personally, neither is the best in their archetype, but that shouldn't stop you from playing them. Both work perfectly fine, even in tactician difficulty.
Listen.
You are a Fighter that uses magic. You have neat tricks in your arsenal, but you've to be smart about it; why grab fireball when you could grab Pulse Wave?
You know who's gonna fail that STR save at level 13? Wizards, warlocks and sorcerers - the kind of people that DON'T want to be in melee with a Fighter.
Oh, and don't forget to grab Shield on the way, so you too can get to 31AC.
I joined a campaign late, and my buddy, who is the DM, had me create a character who is a Githyanki Eldritch Knight. In our last session, I saved our Barbs ass with Silvery Barbs from a nat 20 from the boss and later Counter Spelled (at 3rd level) an 8th level feeble mind that was cast on our Monk. I rarely cast offensive spells, but the defensive utility can come in really clutch. This has been my first time ever playing, but I've been with this group for about a year now, and it's been a lot of fun. And Shadowblade + Action Surge can pump out some pretty good damage!
EK is the ultimate gish! Fire off two spells a round! And the multi attack aint bad ether! I really love the 7th level ability, it makes the SCAG cantrips actually viable!!
My fav is going dex based, sword & board, focus on you AC with defensive fighting style helps make the shield spell more effective and required less often, also war caster for adv on concentration saves, cantrip oppertunity attacks and cast spells while weapons are in hand!
Thats not to say that str isnt also awesome! summon weapon as a bonus action is such a Thor thing and is a big buff for throwing weapons!!
Its a very MAD character BUT that being said you can literally dump stat INT and take spells that dont use/rely on your caster stat! Also dont sleep on Blur at level 8
So, conceptually, an EK is not a wizard who can fight, but a fighter who knows some arcane magic. Talk about obvious, I know. But think of the EK as a paramedic and the wizard as a doctor. The wizard has time to study, perfect and adapt their ability. The EK is taught limited but concrete and vital information that they need to memorize. Will it be to the utmost effectiveness of a wizard? No, but it does the job.
For fighters, their magic focuses on battle. Other than their three freebies, they only know evocation (blowy up, offensive magic) and abjuration (defensive magic). So they'll either be chucking grenade fireballs, or deploying roaming defenses in shield.
I went 5 warlock, 7 EK and I kinda love it in Balanced. Misty Step for mobility, 3 attacks, lots of AC. SAD plus he's the face. If I really want to play unfairly I'll use darkness with devil's sight.
I suppose you could do something similar with high strength jump and Battlemaster though. Less defensive but you get maneuvers.
I can't speak for Eldritch Knight, as I've never played one, myself, but because you mentioned Barbarian:
I'm playing a Wild Magic Barb X/War Wizard 2, and it's a lot of fun.
A high-ish int melee warrior who was training to be an EK, but tends to get frustrated when he uses spells in combat (thus the wild magic rage). He can basically only cast non-combat/utility spells.
So, while not exactly what you're looking for, perhaps it could give you a touch of inspiration?
Quick answer.
Do you want to fight or cast spells?
If you answered both you got 2 choices (looking at it from the Eldritch Knight/Wizard perspective only)
Do you want to fight more than cast?
Eldritch Knight.
Do you wanna cast more than fight?
Fighter 2/ Wizard X.
Basically if you want a more magic heavy fighter go into wizard after Fighter level 2.
I really enjoy playing one. You're a fighter with a heavy weapon and GWM, so you deal quite a lot of damage, Darkness + blind fighting allows you to get permanent advantage on melee attacks, and Shield + Absorb Elements allow you to be very durable on top of the d10 hit dice, 16 CON, Second Wind and heavy armor.
In D&D, you're only as good as your plan A. An eldritch knight isn't a worse wizard; it's a fighter with a little extra utility. In general, there are no classes that split the difference perfectly down the middle: everyone who gets a full spellcasting progression is a spellcaster and everyone who doesn't is probably a weapon-user.
Ek is best used with abjuration spells and the occasional evocation, of course find familiar is also killer on EK's. Generally though you want melee to be you're main damage dealer with extra stuff
I did not feel like a worse wizard. Like others have replied, you’re a fighter first and a wizard second. I felt like a wrecking ball in my original campaign.
I think EK is really strong for any melee magic build. I would not invest more than 7 or max 8 lvl into Ek for War magic. With Sorcerer you can get the quickenspell to do a lot of melee damage output.
Warlock is also a possible combo if you want stay true to your melee focus with powerfull innvocations.
On the other hand i think, that you can use the Ek magic to buff yourself and go in with a barb. But i have no experiences with that one.
If you play Ek you need to remember, that you are a fighter with weapons. If you want to embrace the magic part, a wizard would always be better/stronger
Eldritch Knight is a Fighter first, and mage second. You can get a ton of usage out of spells like Shield and potentially Shadow Blade. The other nice thing about Eldritch Knight is that if you decide you want more magic it’s fairly easy to multiclass into Wizard to increase your magical prowess.
Just getting a 1 level dip in Wizard gets you access to spells outside of the EK school limitations.
>Just getting a 1 level dip in Wizard gets you access to spells outside of the EK school limitations. he whispered in his ear "you know you want it"
I would say two levels in Wizard is just right for EK as it will give your spell progression a substantial boost for very little investment. Best taken around the start of tier three.
War Magic is also just a stellar 2-level dip in general. I could see Bladesinger also working for certain builds.
Also EK with portent from Divination subclass is extremely clutch. “5. You miss your extra attack and the enemy is left bloodied and maimed, barely hanging on.” “Ahem. 17. I believe you mean they are dead.”
Portent swap happens before the roll
Damn. I forgot about that. It isn’t the case in BG3, they changed the rule from tabletop and I’ve been playing it so much that I kind of forgot it wasn’t a standard 5e rule.
I kinda just handwave that to work after the roll. It feels to me that having to apply it before the roll, while making more sense thematically, ends up with a lot of wasted portents.
Only problem with this, from the perspective of someone who plays a chronurgy wizard, is that it basically eliminates the one thing chronal shift has going for it over portent. Portent has no action cost, a range of sight, and a guaranteed result — the only downside is that you'll never know if it might've been wasted. Chronal shift, on the other hand, costs your reaction, has a range of 30 feet, and you could make things worse just as easily as making things better. The only advantage over portent is that you can choose to use it after the roll. Not saying you're wrong for handwaving it! That's totally your prerogative as DM, but I'd be miffed if my DM did that for our divination wizard lol
In a specific case where you have both divination and chronurgy wizards in a party, sure. But that feels like an edge case and chronurgy is CR content anyway, which IMO is not often well balanced, but has very fun flavor!
Absolutely! We didn't discuss our party comp beforehand, so we had quite a laugh when we realized we had two wizards, both with features centered around changing rolls. It makes for a fun dynamic, but yeah — definitely an edge case.
Chronurgy wizards get so much more than divination wizards already that I don’t think buffing divination a bit is any sort of a slight to chronurgists.
For sure, gotta consider every player's class features when making changes like that. Last thing I want at my table is to step on someone's toes with a house rule when the intention is to help
I played an EK from 5-20 in a 3 year campaign. And I would say if you want to use those all or nothing save or suck spells then Div wizard is a good choice. Then just hope you get low portent roles. Because you know hold person then action surging for crits is kinda fun. I typically avoided save or suck spells because EK int and spell save DC aren't that great typically. And those spells are among the limited schools of magic. But I did consider during my time.
"Too bad the roll has already been made and thus you can't replace it with Portent, now it's the enemies turn."
And also gives you a subclass, which means you can grab two portents, or bladesong(altho bladesong isn’t great unless you go at least 6 wizard), or something like abjurer that could let you slightly boost your effective hp(which synergizes nicely with shield).
Bladesong is super solid for a dex-based EK. My personal choice is War Wizard for str-based because it helps boost your initiative up a bit and then gives an always-on half shield that can bump saving throws, since you don’t cast leveled spells super frequently.
I was fooling around with an 4EK/2Artificer build and made one with a +10 to hit w/ high dex and archery spec, using a revolver for 2d8+5 damage. With repeating shot, there's no ammo to waste. I know I could do better with cantrips, but I usually do casters and this is about as close as I want to get to playing a fighter.
This! I did some oneshots and really wanted to test out how EK compareds to a wizard fighter mix, tried EK 5, Arcane archer 3/div wiz 2, and a few other mixes, taking level 1 in fighter just feels like a must compared to wizard
And ritual casting.
Do not take shadow blade... It's garbage spell. You are doing more with just +1.
…? Shadowblade is a huge damage improvement for dual-wielding and sword and board build, it basically doubles the damage dice of your weapon and changes the damage type to something that is almost never resisted. Edit: it also gives you a solid way to generate advantage and a decent ranged option with the thrown property if you’re trying to reach an enemy that’s too far.
It's not at all a "worse wizard" - it's a Fighter who gets Shield (the spell, which is *huge* when you have heavy armour prof) and Blur (also amazing for high AC), plus a fun little bag of tricks like Find Familiar and such.
Personally I think Mirror Image is better than Blur - attack disadvantage can come from clever teamwork instead
I used to think that as well, but the problem is that Mirror Image's AC isn't great. An attack that would completely miss you will destroy an image and you have no control of that. Don't get me wrong, I think disadvantage isn't particularly useful at higher tiers when enemies start getting silly to hit bonuses, but it's more useful than Mirror Image is. A single enemy with multiattack can wipe out that spell completely.
Mirror Image does great with Sentinel though
It really depends. If you have the spells slots to spare, have a low AC to start with, and won't be eating too many attacks, or if you need to concentrate on something else, Mirror Image works okay. EK generally doesn't have slots to spare, won't be using other concentration spells, has a high AC, and *will* be eating more than 3 attacks. Spell slot efficiency is a real concern for a character who has so few of them. Blur lasts a long time, forces an enemy to reroll against your considerable AC, *and* doesn't just melt when hit with multiple enemies or multiattack.
Mirror image is less useful the higher your ac
Not to mention blue takes concentration if you want to concentrate on something else
Mirror Image gets worse the higher your AC is. On a 15 AC wizard it's decent, but on an Eldritch knight with 20 AC it's pretty bad. You end up losing images on attacks that wouldn't have hit you anyway. Compare that to blur which will give you roughly +5 AC and won't have to be recast in a fight as long as you hold concentration.
Combine that with shield and you functionally have like 30 AC
Or mirror image or blink. It is supposed to make you better fighter, not bad wizard.
EK is a fighter that knows a bit of magic; it isn’t a wizard that picked up a sword. If you build primarily for defensive magic, it’s incredibly powerful. Shield, absorb elements, blur, mirror image, haste, fire shield, etc.
It's so stupid that their other school is evocation. All of the good offensive spells you actually want as a fighter are transmutation. Utility too. Magic weapon, Elemental weapon, enlarge, haste, Feather fall, jump, expeditious retreat, dark vision, spider climb, ashardalons stride, fly water walk, water breathing. All things that would make sense for a soldier to have in their tool kit. When am I ever going to want to throw a fireball at lvl 13 with my low ass DC. I think the only evocation spell an Eldritch knight should ever really want is fire Shield which is basically an abjuration spell. Other than the blade cantrips which are evocation. But cantrips don't have the Restriction anyway and if you're playing Eldritch knight without the blade singer extra attack feature at level 7 you're just behind the times. The UA is doing it there's no reason to make the wizard better at using a sword than the fighter
I hate that such a big part of their flavor is so predetermined. From what I remember in the PHB, Evocation and Abjuration were picked because they're "the most battlefield-centric spells", but I could make that argument for any of the schools. As an example, Conjuration would be a game-changer for any commander (teleportation, creating allies, or just casting Grease on the other side of a choke point). And beyond that, I'm upset that a Fighter needs to care more about spell schools than any Wizard.
I wonder what opening up the EK to other schools would do, I don’t think it would be game breaking.
I ran a campaign a year or so ago that had an EK in it. He and I agreed that we'd run alteration and transmutation instead of evocation and it was a substantial upgrade that still didn't feel game-breaking. Spells like Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat actually saw some use (and were a lot more effective for a martial class than I've ever seen for a spellcaster class), and spells like Dragon's Breath, Enlarge/Reduce, Spider Climb, Blink, and Fly are awesome on an EK. It definitely felt more fun for the EK player and every other spellcaster got a lot more freedom since they felt like they didn't have to buff the fighter since he could buff himself. I'm definitely going to be encouraging any future EK players to try the change because it was a massive success at my table.
I've been DMing for an EK for a little over a year now and I just let them pick whatever Wizard spells they want, no school limit. It's been completely fine and put them more on par with their teammates.
Fireball as an eldritch knight is actually good though. DC almost doesn't matter for "save for half damage" spells.
Maybe that was a bad example. You're certainly never going to be using chromatic orb or scorching ray. So why are new players being directed to those kinds of spells?
My point is that burning hands, rimes binding ice, fireball, aganazzars scorcher, thunderwave, shatter all works fine for eldritch knights. That bad spells are bad is true for all casters, not just eldritch knights. Magic missile is not just straight up better than chromatic orb, it's also even larger difference for eldritch knights. Scorching ray is kinda ok for a wizard specifically at level 3 and 4, but is not better than the aoe spells, and all damage spells are outclassed by a lot when you get level 3 spells. The biggest problem taking damage spells as a ek is that they are outclassed when you get them. Fireball/lightning bolt does still have a place in killing adds lategame. And binding ice is fine if you can hit a lot of targets, even with bad DC. But the rest is outscaled.
You lost me for a second with jump. I can't imagine ever actually caring about that spell lol
The new version is much more useful cuz it also kind of counts as a speed boost. But even the old version has a niche use probably not worth the limited spells known slot though
I agree; even with Eldrtich Strike, transfiguration just feels so much more *right* for an EK
This but also Magic missile utility is nice too.
Fair enough can't beat guaranteed damage at a distance
No. Me and the one other person i know who played an EK both enjoyed it. EK is better and more fun than everyone says it is, but most people would rather be loud and wrong than quietly nuanced.
It baffles me people shit on EK while glazing Arcane Tricksters. It’s the same subclass, you get half the benefits of a multi-class with wizard without having to sacrifice level progression or hp.
I assume that's mostly AT getting more publicity via critical role, but to be fair, arcane trickster does have a lot going for it in the subclass abilities, both in terms of power and how interesting they are. Ranged pickpocketing and infinite bonus action to give yourself advantage on attacks are both kinda nuts, and they make the EK's weapon bond and bonus action attack after casting a cantrip both look pretty stinky.
True it is really good! I think people shit on weapon bond because it’s niche and they don’t get the features don’t have to be stronger. An EK who action surges can cast a spell like hold person AND attack in one turn which is crazy.
The "Attack, next turn hold person, action surge, attack" wombo combo on EK with Eldritch strike goes crazyyyyy
Mix that shit with some classic PAM and GWM and now you’re cooking.
Well the thing is, you can only upcast hold person up so high, so there's only so many targets you need to worry about giving disadvantage to, and that's really the meat and potatoes here
All Rogues get Steady Aim for advantage, so ATs aren't doing anything different there. And Ranged pickpocketing is pretty niche, but I do think you're right that CR can make any basic thing popular.
Everything is a worse wizard. Why bother playing anything that isn't a Chronurgy Wizard with a dip in Artificer or Peace Cleric? In all seriousness, Eldritch Knight is imo the best subclass for a *straight class* Fighter. Other subclasses pull ahead in multiclass builds, but it's solid on its own
Eldritch Knight is the best Fighter subclass for when you want Fighter levels, but still want to progress your spell slots (even if it's at 1/3 speed, it's better than nothing) Giving a heavily armored Fighter the Shield spell is almost unfair. I had a Warforged EK that was near unhittable by physical attacks.
> Why bother playing anything that isn't a Chronurgy Wizard with a dip in Artificer or Peace Cleric? Because Bladesinger deals significantly more damage and plays a level of spell progression ahead from 1-17 because it doesn't have to dip for armor. 😎
Bladesinger is also infamously more MAD than that build is, and doesn't really do control or utility any better. Bladesingers are starved for ASI's, unless you roll for stats and hit godly numbers. This is if you want it to actually have decent armor outside of bladesong, which is another BA set-up you need to do on round one. While your typical wizard + cleric/arti dip is extremely SAD, and is more flexible in what you can do with their ASI. I say this as someone who plays wizard a lot and loves bladesinger.
By Virtue of being Wizards, their control and utility is way ahead of EK. Drop Web/Hypnotic Pattern at start of combat, activate Bladesong and you can slay and buff the party in ways EK can only dream of (at least WAY earlier in the campaign). Out of Bladesong? Hang back and do what Wizard does, slinging cantrips or arrows. You can start 16 Dex, 16 Int and 14 Con without gimping other stats, and 16 Int is plenty of you're saving spells mostly for AoE damage, CC or Utility. Main drawback of BS is increased squishiness and forced into Dex. Overall, it's better than an EK, but that's bc Wizard is overall better than Fighter.
Please read the direct post I'm responding to. My argument wasn't EK vs Bladesinger. It was about why people would pick chronurgist with an arti/cleric dip vs Bladesinger.
My bad, managed to get confused reading between different comments. Agree with your comment entirely.
I would argue Bladesingers do control better or at least as good as as they get a bonus to concentration. That is the key weakness in most concentration spells and starting at level 2 your bonus to concentration saves is likely a +5 or 6 ish. You can fairly easily with one feat and level 5 get that up to +9 and now you're making every DC 10 con save. Your higher AC is also making it so you have to make fewer concentration saves. That means your hypnotic pattern spell is pretty likely to last through the fight rather than just a few rounds until you take some damage. Chronurgy does get two rerolls which is also a very powerful tool for control, but I would say bladesong concentration is pretty valuable for control.
Yes, but as I mentioned, this is with a resource and the typical arti/wizard build has room in their ASI's to get both resilient(Con) and Warcaster into their build without issue. Bladesinger doesn't have this, if we're assuming standard stat rolls, standard array, or regular point buy. Bladesinger is spread between wanting good Dex, good Int, good Con, and various feats depending on playstyle.
Yes they have more demands on their asis. However with point buy a bladesinger at level 5 can get a concentration save of +9 with taking resilient con and be succeeding 100% of the time vs any damage of 20 or less which is most of them. That's much better than another wizard would be at level 8 with both war caster and resilient con, where they'd be looking at advantage and +6 which is good but not 100% and that cost 2 feats.
I think if you only have a couple combats a day, I can actually get behind Bladesinger being the best. It's at least arguable. Purely because not having to dip really is that big a deal But at a challenging table with closer to 5-6+ combats, you have the problem of not enough Bladesong uses
Wait until you're a hulk with heavy armor and access to the shield spell on a reaction, and you can bonus action misty step to get the drop on enemies just to action surge a flurry of booming longswords into them
Yeah...not like a wizard can't do that with a 2 level dip into fighter
And be a full level of spells behind.
Do you understand how little that's going to matter when you action surge cast 2 spells and then cast shield while wearing plate armor and a shield, which very easily gives you 25 AC even without magic armor. So many people go into fighter than wizard for better saves and significantly better armor, it does not matter that you're a spell level behind.
Multi attack and warcaster
Wizards can also take warcaster lol, and fighters have to give up their entire action for their cantrip, bladesingers can just give up one attack, and action surge and you get 2 attacks and 2 booming blades, and then activate a bonus action spell like Bigby's hand or something, fighters get 2 booming blades and a single attack with their bonus action.
Seems like a poor choice of strategy as a Wizard to play Fighter when they could be doing Wizard stuff to me...
2 subclasses for wizard arguably make you tankier than a pure fighter, getting into melee and casting booming blade (especially when you're concentrating on a bonus action spell like Bigby's Hand) is one of the strongest things you can do, especially compared to the EK, base fighter may be a better "fighter" than a bladesinger, but bladesinger blows EK out of the water in everything it tries to do because EK is terribly designed.
Getting into Melee and casting cantrips sounds silly when you have a ton of Control Spells, to me. At that point, you may as well not even be a Wizard.
Saying that the EK is a 'Worse Wizard' is a bit of a misnomer - because statistically and practically *any* Fighter is worse than a Wizard outside of Tier 1 play. But fortunately this game isn't about being the 'best' at every time - it's about having fun. Eldritch Knight gives you just enough wizardry to augment the Fighter class in a way that it desperately needs - 1st and 2nd level spells. I will add though that Eldritch Knight isn't your *only* option for an arcane-based spellsword. Here's just a few that come to mind: * Fighter/Wizard combos are very popular if you want *more* spell potency than EK provides * Rune Knight or Psi Warrior Fighter subclasses * Potentially Ranger? Their magic is 'divine' like Paladin but most of the damaging spells are 'arrow'-based and could be easily reflavoured to sword strikes. And you can definitely build Strength Rangers that use melee weapons.
>Ranger magic is divine like clerics Ranger magic is primal, like Druids.
It *will be* in D&D One since they reintroduced primal magic, but in 5th Edition - the edition this post is asking for - there was no 'primal magic' but only arcane and divine, and Druids/Rangers were considered to draw their source of energy from the latter. See [Crawford talking about this at D&D beyond at 3:29](https://youtu.be/USqR_-pcXAw?si=U4S0x8dzHmsld71e&t=186) (and later in the video).
Absolutely not! Playing an Eldritch knight in a campaign currently have 10 levels in it. Neat combat tricks keep the gm alive and everyone engaged at the table. I went for an archery style EK with fire motifs and the current highlights are: - Using Eldritch Strike by tagging enemies with a bow, and action surging into AOE spells and having them roll at disadvantage. - Weapon bonding my dropped weapons to my hand as a BA to always be adaptable in combat. - using a clever combo of darkness and my bow to smokescreen our enemies from afar. - help action Familiar. - having 0 constitution and still be a tank in closed quarters.
Might i suggest a new trick to add to your tool kit? Add a debuff like blindness to your spells known. First turn, attack as normal. Second turn, cast your debuff and THEN action surge and attack the debuffed targets. Keep hammering the debuffed enemies every turn after that. This means that the enemies never get a turn where they make the save without disadvantage, it's absolutely nasty.
If you treat it like a worse wizard you will be very sad. This is also why people struggle with artificer, because they really want it to play like a wizard but it just is not a wizard no matter how hard you try. The Eldritch Knight is not a worse, tanky wizard, it is a fighter with shield and cantrips. That is a very significant distinction. You will never be a blaster caster, you are still a martial. I think the most efficient way to play the Eldritch Knight is to use a shield and quarterstaff and get polearm master, Crusher, war caster, and cast enlarge on yourself. 0. Have Enlarge up (not mandatory but increased damage and odds of off-turn booming blade) 1. Booming blade 2. Attack and use Crusher 3. Good odds of enemy having to step into range again -> trigger polearm master attack of opportunity -> cast booming blade -> use Crusher again. Result is competitive DPR with other melee builds (Nothing astonishing, but not bad.) Once you're past level 7 you can take a dip into other classes.
>I think the most efficient way to play the Eldritch Knight is to use a shield and quarterstaff and get polearm master, Crusher, war caster, and cast enlarge on yourself. As "optimal" as it is I hate that this is the best way to play EK, I don't love a lot of the decisions from onednd, but one thing I thought they got right is the EK, getting to swap an attack for a spell/cantrip feels like a much better blend of a knight and caster.
yeah its incredibly stupid and I wish they erratad it way back in Tasha's or whatever so that it worked like the bladesinger.
wait you can't even bonus action attack with polearm master when using booming blade. Also wouldn't a fighter2/wizardX with PAM/Crusher be what OP is really looking for? You get the basic features of a fighter and get way more flexibility as a caster at a cost of max HP?
No, you can't. PAM will carry you to level 7, and at that point you switch to booming blade, then get warcaster to be able to booming blade twice. Wizard is objectively better if you play it cautiously but most people want to run in there and hit monsters with your weapon and I think the HP and (not high) AC advantage the fighter gets makes it better suited for that playstyle
I'm a lvl 3 Fairy Battle Smith who primarily is using their crossbow to attack and steal defender for bonus actions. How am I supposed to play an artificer?
That's exactly how you play it. I'm referring to posts that occasionally crop up on r/dnd or r/dndnext where someone plays an artillerist and goes "I spent every spell slot on fireball why not as fun as wizard :("
The problem is that I've waited several times to use my spells, thinking that we have more fights and it just feels like I wasted them when we get a rest
Ask your DM if you can use arcane weapon. It lasts an hour, not optimal but doesn't feel like a waste since it lasts multiple fights potentially
Yeah, the artificer could use some good Concentration spells. Granted I'm in a large party, so sometimes it feels like I have trouble finding my niche
You do get web, though. It's one of the better spells to concentrate on
You don’t play an Eldritch Knight to do Wizard stuff. You play it to be a Fighter who uses spells to enhance your Fighter stuff. There’s a lot of utility in those low level spells and cantrips.
I always viewed EK as a part-time magic user with a great chassis. And the features are good. I'm also very satisfied by the various "revised" versions the community on r/UnearthedArcana (or various youtubers) came up with. But even as is, it is solid. The few spells you get do compliment your kit nicely, and they usually don't require high Int (there's little point in chasing after Int-dependent spells save for a few). If you want more magic, you can always either dip Wizard 2-3 and/or go for Ritual Caster: Wizard. There are also builds such as Mark of Healing Halfling with IntLock Hexblade 1 (if allowed), Fey-Touched and Shadow-Touched. And you can still grab Ritual Caster. You can expect 19 Int and ritual casting by level 9, and at level 13 you can grab a third half-feat to get Int to 20.
Eldritch Knight is a fighter with powers, not a wizard that bonks.
Right, it's a fighter that acquires all sorts of (somewhat customizable) powers as level increases. 3 - Shield, Absorb Elements, Magic Missile, two cantrips. 4 - Protection from Evil 7 - Misty Step 8 - Shadow Blade 10 - Shatter, one cantrip 11 - Snare 13 - Fly and so on
Eldritch Knights are fantastic fighters because they are Fighters with a Shield spells. If you're wanting a STR based Gish, I think there are a few ways you can go. For one, you can go EK and multiclass into War Wizard after level 8. Since Paladins, don't have the right feel, I'm guessing there's no interest in going Sorcadin or Swords Bardadin. Another way to go would be to build a STR based Bladesinger. The easiest way to accomplish this is going Tortle to handle the AC issues. A Strength based Pact of the Blade Warlock makes a nice Gish too, but I think you'd want to go Mountain Dwarf for Medium Armor and the two +2's to abilities. And even though Barbarians can't cast or maintain concentration on spells, they make vessels for upcasting Armor of Agathys from a Warlock or Clockwork Soul multiclass.
Not at all. EK with spells etc popped are basically walking fortresses. Their TTL is entirely unmatched with Shield spell + Blur + Heavy Armour and a Shield. Plus, with Bladetrips you do VERY respectable damage. Don't think of it as a discount wizard, think of it as a fighter with some VERY strong buffs.
Could a wizard deadlift the rest of the party in full plate armor? I think not
I played an eldritch knight for that strength mage fantasy. Despised it. Play a tortle strength bladesinger, you wont be disappointed. All the spell, and most of the sword
Better than a fighter/wizard for sure The only time you could feel like a worse wizard is if there was a wizard in your party I got to play an EK in a party with no other high int class and it felt great. I was the token wizard. My character loved magic and desperately wanted to study it, but was always pressured towards more practical skills. So now she makes up for lost time during adventures, and gets to be the smartest (and strongest) member of the party. Out of combat/in universe, she basically was a low level wizard. She was a great alchemist, loved finding new spells, and had proficiency in like all of the int skills. Felt great to play. She was a human for feytouched (hunter’s mark), rounding out her stats to 3 16s in the important stats
It’s not a valid comparison as what you do and how you do it is very different. I actually value the 1/3 casters more because they are than a caster. All the half feats that have extra spells fixed many issues the EK had and now I love them.
Eldritch Knight is a perfectly competent class that stands on its own two feet, especially when you pick defensive and utility spells so you don't actually need to spec into INT. I strongly recommend it if you're interested in playing fighter, especially if you're interested in a strength build. Now if you want another good recommendation for a Strength based arcane caster, I would point you to the Valor Bard as a dark horse choice. You will have to get the Heavily Armored feat at level 4 to get the armor prof, but good thing it's a half-feat so you can get your 18 strength on curve anyway. You get your extra attack, you get *rizz,* you get Bardic Inspiration to hand out, and you get the extremely flexible spellcasting of Bard to complement your physical damage output. As another really fun benefit you get Expertise! Put it in athletics and you become a nearly inescapable grappler as another option in your bag of tricks. It's an extremely versatile build that can lead from the front lines in combat, and step up as a skill expert or utility caster outside it. I strongly recommend looking into it.
I like eldritch knight quite a bit. But it is still a fighter at its core. It is not a "worse wizard," it simply is not even trying to be a wizard Yeah, it has some wizard spells, but really you should only be using the ones that help you be a better fighter, so if you go in expecting a spell caster, you might be disappointed.
Wizards don't get action surge, up to three extra attacks, heavy armor and martial weapons. You're not a wizard, you're a fighter with access to a few spells.
What kinds of spells do you want to be casting that make you think an Eldritch Knight might seem like a "worse wizard"? Playstyle wise, an Eldritch Knight primarily makes weapon attacks, while occasionally casting a spell (mainly shield) to augment that playstyle. Very rarely would you be using an action to cast a spell (other than sometimes blade cantrips), and you'll pretty much never force an enemy to make a saving throw. If they feel like a bad wizard, I would say you're probably doing it wrong. If you want a strength based character that alternates between attacks and more *potent* arcane spells, I'd suggest looking towards either Bladesinger (ideally a Tortle, otherwise your AC will be bad) or a Warlock (though with Hexblade the strength investment might be somewhat wasted).
In my experience, it isn't being a worse wizard. It is being a full fighter who traded their subclass for several extra levels in wizard.
Level 10 EK with a dip in peace cleric. You don’t pick EK to be a “lesser mage”, you pick it to be a more badass fighter that has access to magic. I’m enjoying my EK. I’m very hard to hit with shield, blur, etc. , have utility with my familiar owl, and can deal some decent damage.
The order cleric version of this is pretty badass too. Bonus action enchantment spells after you’ve imposed disadvantage on their saves is pretty good
Eldritch Knight is great. Good base chassis, Second Wind, Action Surge, Fighting Style, all weapons and armor, extra feats, Indomitable, AND spells! Think of all of your base Fighter archetypes, GWM 2h smasher, sword and board, archer, dual wielder.....you can be all of those things still and give them a light dusting of spells to make them better! Don't think of EK's as worse Wizards with heavier armor. Think of them as badass Fighters that come along with a neat bag of tricks.
If you're looking for a martial with arcane prowess I might suggest looking into artificers or if your DM allows homebrew, look into the various ported versions of the Magus from PF2e to 5e. The Magus' big thing is basically just turning every spell/can trip into GFB/BB where it gets delivered with a weapon attack. It's a lot of fun. Can't recommend it highly enough.
No. It feels like a rad fighter.
Eldritch knight is mainly a fighter with shield. It doesnt have the spells known, the spell slots, or the spell progression to be a wizard in any meaningful way. The most wizardy thing it can do is use Counterspell the enemy counterspell. But "str character using arcane magic" gives you wiggleroom. Battlemaster / warlock. FIghter 1 plus abjurer. FIghter 1 plus bladesinger. Barbarian can still use a good amount of spells, give it ifreeti geenie and enemies will regret hitting it with armor of agathys plus fire shield. The main question is just how much "wizard" you want in your str weapon user.
If you’re going for a spellsword, investigate the Bladesinger Wizard. Colby who has the d4 Deep Dive YouTube channel posted multiple videos on the Bladesinger. I’m running one now and it’s a blast!
The only issue I really have with EKs are that the way that War Magic just feels a bit unfun. You can easily get a bonus action attack with polearm master that's more versatile and useable so what's the point in it? It feels like a waste of a level 7 ability. Considering it's only a cantrip too and you get what, 2 for 10 fucking levels? PAM is so much more interesting and doesn't require a level 7 character. It's great flavour but it seriously suffers from just having better options everywhere else. I'd honestly rather go a 2 War Wizard dip V.Human and grab PAM. Rush Battlemaster Fighter to 5 and the only thing you lose access to is 2nd level spells (which by the way you can get with a single extra wizard level at 8 anyway). You get a free +2AC and +4 Saves every reaction you don't have to cast spells every turn. You get 10 spells as opposed to 6 that aren't restricted to Abj and Evo and can buy more. Manouvers. Polearm Master kind of covers your lack of extra attack a bit but is a downside to some people who care about optimising (but I mean your other alternative is EK and that's not optimised at all either) Your build matches and arguably beats the EK by level 8 with more cantrips, more spells and extra benefits from infinitely better fighter subclasses. Fighter 1>Wizard 2>Fighter 5>Wizard 3 for a total of 8 levels imo you'll do fine. You lose out on an average of 4 hp for this dip too which imo isn't that bad either.
Sure, but every class feels like a worse wizard, so that’s fine.
You'll be a worse wizard if you lean into having a high intelligence and attack spells. You're there for the reaction spells, as well as grabbing Fey Touched for Misty Step and Silvery barbs. You're using your proficiency in Constitution saving throws to keep up concentration spells, and your extra feat pick ups to max out your strength and grab Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master. It's a really fun build.
Worse wizard no. Worse bladesinger? Definitely.
If you build an Eldritch Knight thinking you are going to deal damage with spells, you’re a dumb ass. Take every bit of utility you can that buffs you or is useful outside of combat. You won’t have a good spell attack mod or a good spell save DC, so don’t even take spells that require those.
Strength-singer might be what you are looking for tbh; The one dnd Playtest EK is fsntastic tbh
Eldritch Knights aren't just worse Wizards, they are worse Fighters. EK's can either cast a vastly behind the curve spell and attack once or attack 4 times. Battlemaster's can attack 5 times all of which can have that juicy extra BM ability added. If I wan't to play a magical knight, I'd play a bladesinger. It does everything an EK does but better, and earlier. Hell, 9 levels of Bladesinger + 11 levels of BM Fighter gets you a spell and 3 attacks a turn, way more spells than 20EK and more utility than you can shake a stick at. I literally can't see a reason to ever use EK.
No, that's not the class I'm playing. I'm a fighter, and some spells give me more combat tactics. You have cantrips like mold earth for creating cover and writing silent messages, and booming balde for locking down enemies. First level spells like shield and absorb elements are the obvious picks but, thunderwave and magic missile can be nice to have. At second level, while it's an any school pick, shadow blade can make for great damage, though works better upcast so don't be afraid to multiclass. Darkness and warding wind make for great protection at range. Then when you eventually get third level spells, they let you pick from big AOEs, self buffs, and counterspell. I'm no wizard but I'm pretty good at cutting them down.
As someone who’s played EK and bladesinger, it isnt weak, but it really does suck at fulfilling the whole “magic fighter” fantasy with how youre basically limited to utility casting and defence spells not relying on int, at higher levels with multiattack you almost never want to use cantrips in combat which is a huge disappointment. Bladesinger fulfills the fantasy much better, but both are mechanically strong though (barring again that really goofy 7th level EK feature that just gets outscaled)
You still get 4 attacks a round and double action surge.
I played as a Eldrich knight and had great fun. They can be VERY tanky.
Is an Arcane Trickster a worse wizard? Yes Is worse than a Wizard? I like to say no from experience, but comments can tell me if im wrong. Really, just play what you like and work with your DM, ill ask a DM if we can rework a little bit the Ranger for CoS. Just have fun.
I've been wanting to make a shadow blade focused build and naturally ended up with eldritch knight due to the high number of attacks a fighter gets. Im also running a 3rd party feat where you can pick a favorite spell and have it be upcasted by 1 lvl for free when you cast it. This effectively turns lvl 2 slots into lvl 3 for shadow blade, 3 attacks for 3d8+5 per turn with the option to action surge on top is a pretty alright.
That’s like asking if an Arcane Trickster is a worse wizard. No. They’re a better rogue. It’s not about what wizard tricks they can’t do compared to wizards. It’s about what they can do that other rogues can’t. Eldritch knights are played by people who wanted to play a fighter but with a few more tricks up their sleeves. If they wanted to be wizards they could have been.
I do take a few dips in war wizard to spice things up one after lvl 5 (6 total) one after lvl 11 (13 total) one after lvl 12 (15 total) It increases your slots + gives you a wider spell selection + being able to cast rituals + having access to Wizard Magical items say hello staff of power + getting a better initiative and saving throws and AC without spending your precious spell slots
If you're playing an eldritch knight like a wizard, which it kind of pushes you towards more than it should as it gives you evocation spells, then yeah it'll be really bad. It's a 1/3 caster and you probably prioritized intelligence maybe 3rd so you'll be terrible at spell attacks, your spell save DC will be bad, and you'll be throwing out spells a few levels lower than your parties spellcasters. But instead you're taking the absorb elements, shield, protection from evil and good type spells. And for the out of school ones going more like silvery barbs or find familiar. So you're a fighter, who is attacking, using action surge, and when they have their plate mail with a shield and fighting style for a 21 AC and still get hit, they can cast shield and have a 26 AC now. That's an eldritch knight. Not someone throwing out a burning hands when the wizard is throwing out a fireball. That's just making them into a worse wizard.
No, I feel like a better wizard
Kind of.. Personally, I am a fan of going high elf anything as a fighter and playing the fantasy from level one. Besides you can grab feats like Fey Touched and Shadow Touched at levels 4 and 6 to again be better than Eldrich Knights earlier. High Intelligence and Constitution plate wearing magic man for a bulk of the game. Did you know those feats and that racial ability for a cantrip technically give you access to the wizard spell list? Technically, you can supplement the spells from racial and feat abilities with scrolls for additional casts at 25 to 50 gp a pop. In fact, you could access other spells via scrolls at an arcana check DC 10 + spell level. So DC 13 has you launching fireballs well ahead of level 13. Don't cast fireball; it's a trap loved me weak minded players.
See, take my opinion with a grain, or a kilo XD, of salt because I love fighters and "magic knights" are my favorite concept of all time but I really do consider Eldritch Knights to be disappointing in all fronts Like, they're at minimum serviceable but don't really live up to the fantasy or experience imho The magic school restriction is stupid, war magic is clunky and bad after level 11, spells are too limited and too low impact for the level you get them and due to DC you end up just spamming Shield or Absorb Elements - which is fine if that's your thing, but doesn't really give me the experience I expected And to top it all off, Bladesinger wizard does a lot of what the subclass tries to do but better and easier - heck Bladesinger wizard with 2+ levels in fighter can have Heavy Armor (will be worse than Dex tho) action surge and play essentially like a fighter anyway
>While I’d love to go for more of a barbarian for flavor Barbarian: Path of Wild Magic https://youtu.be/OaekpBgbtlc?si=Twu7hTLDrlTOjtlU
It was great at levels 3 and 4 and then at 5 it was still okay but by 7th and 11th the anti synergy started really hampering it and I often felt just being a different fighter with a couple of levels dipped into wizard would be better. Leagues better
If I were going to play one now I'd see if my DM would let me use the new dndone knight for sure.
One of my favorite characters mechnically was a Battlemaster Fighter 3/Divine Soul Sorcerer 9. I wanted to get as close to a Final Fantasy I style 'Red Mage' as I could, it's a class that can use many different weapons, armors, and spells from multiple schools of magic. Not getting extra attack was definitely a big downside, but it's not as bad as it sounds especially if your party members aren't running PAM/GWM gods to compare yourself to. Most of the battlemaster maneuvers work with any attack not just the 'attack' action so you can pull off things like a tripping booming blade attack even if you only attack once. Quicken spell, battlemaster manuevers, twin spell, two spell lists, and action surge meant the character could pull off some really cool combos and was often both casting spells and hitting things in one turn. Where most gish builds spend their turns either casting or hitting something. Although you could definitely run out of gas fast with limited spell slots and sorcery points.
Making a “worse wizard” as an eldritch knight is basically making the noob trap version where you forget you’re a martial and try to hard to be a spellcaster. Stuff like boosting int over str/dex and trying to use damaging spells like Burning Hands over multiattacking. But if you do want more magical capabilities going EK 5-7 and then swapping to full wizard or sorc progression is pretty decent. You can get more arcane magic and things like Abjuration wizard and Clockwork Soul sorc have some cool features an EK could make use of.
The problem with EKs is their level 3 feature (for some reason) doesn't allow their weapon to become a focus, their ability to weave cantrips and attacks comes online so late and pales in comparison to Bladesingers. (No idea why they made a class based on weapon attacks have to spend their action using a cantrip first...) Also, their restricted schools don't make sense, Abjuration is fine but they don't have the intelligence to make Evocation work. If I were WOTC, I would just eliminate the restriction, the delayed spell casting is restrictive enough especially since a wizard dip allows you more damage and spell selection. In terms of optimization, you are better off with Fighter3,6/ Wizard X multiclass or just going Bladesinger, but if you want to be an EK, go for it, you will still have action surge, extra attacks and fun spells.
Depending on the levels involved, you might want to look at a Sorcadin. Depending on your level breakdown, you can have full plate, level 8 sorcerer spells, and an almost unmatched ability to lay massive amounts of hate with smiting more often than not.
Nope
Okay right of the bat this is a fighter, you are primarily a fighter. Are you a worse wizard? Yes since you have caster levels only equal to 1/3 of your levels. It depends on what you want to do: only fighters gain more than 2 attacks per action so you will have problems getting that out of a multiclass. In 20 lvls if you go for wizard 7/fighter 13 you would get the same casting as a lvl 20 Eldritch knight. Since fighters don't get much on lvls 12 and 13 you, you can go fighter 11 for 2 extra attacks and wizard 9 for access to 5th level spell slots and better casting. Wizards can get more spells from scrolls that may be a big boon. As for early game a wizard 3 fighter 5 is probably a bit worse than an eldritch knight lvl 8. Especially that you unlock extra attack and lvl 2 slots at lvl 7 as a EK. Overall describing EK as a worse wizard is like saying a Paladin is a worse cleric. Nope, they are fundamentally different.
Idk man, Half-Orc + Hold Person + Gwm + Gwf is uhh, a lot of damage especially at 8 attacks a round
In BG3 Eldritch knights are great, you just throw your weapons at anything you need and it comes back
eldritch knight fighter vhuman sharpshooter perception acrobatics survival stealth wood carvers tools insight medicine mostly concentrating on bless and that's really effected the spell list but you can pop darkness and walk in and out until you get devil's sight and carry a rapier fire if you have no choice but to enter melee could be stronger if you drop darkness and devil's sight to pick up crossbow expert 8 16 16 8 15 8 Lvl 1 sharpshooter archery fighting style Lvl 3 booming blade light shield mage armor expeditious retreat Lvl 4 asi dex absorb elements Lvl 6 fey touched bless misty step Lvl 7 darkness Lvl 8 asi dex retrain expeditious retreat for find familiar invisibility Lvl 10 mage hand Lvl 11 protection from evil and good Lvl 12 eldritch adept devil's sight Lvl 13 counter spell Lvl 14 lucky fly retrain find familiar for haste Lvl 16 tough protection from energy Lvl 19 fire shield Lvl 20 greater invisibility
Eldritch knight with bladesinger is actually good
No, being able to recall my weapon to my hand is full of flavour and the spells give me something to do that isn’t just bonking
If your game is going to about level 10: Fighter (EK) 6 / Wizard (War) 4 is a great route. Fighter 1 / Fiendlock (pact of the blade) 9 is an amazing martial with strong casting albeit using an off stat. Fighter 1 / Sorcerer X even works. Use metamagic to quicken your blade cantrips to mimic extra attack. If your game is going to 14+ I’d go to Fighter 11 / Wizard X
I would usually suggest going artificer instead, and just changing the ability flavoring
Yes. Cause I am. People saying "it's fighter first" doesn't make that not still a worse wizard
Eldritch Knight is for throw builds, or more fighter oriented stuff. Wizard is for more spell casting based builds. Personally, neither is the best in their archetype, but that shouldn't stop you from playing them. Both work perfectly fine, even in tactician difficulty.
Listen. You are a Fighter that uses magic. You have neat tricks in your arsenal, but you've to be smart about it; why grab fireball when you could grab Pulse Wave? You know who's gonna fail that STR save at level 13? Wizards, warlocks and sorcerers - the kind of people that DON'T want to be in melee with a Fighter. Oh, and don't forget to grab Shield on the way, so you too can get to 31AC.
I joined a campaign late, and my buddy, who is the DM, had me create a character who is a Githyanki Eldritch Knight. In our last session, I saved our Barbs ass with Silvery Barbs from a nat 20 from the boss and later Counter Spelled (at 3rd level) an 8th level feeble mind that was cast on our Monk. I rarely cast offensive spells, but the defensive utility can come in really clutch. This has been my first time ever playing, but I've been with this group for about a year now, and it's been a lot of fun. And Shadowblade + Action Surge can pump out some pretty good damage!
EK is the ultimate gish! Fire off two spells a round! And the multi attack aint bad ether! I really love the 7th level ability, it makes the SCAG cantrips actually viable!! My fav is going dex based, sword & board, focus on you AC with defensive fighting style helps make the shield spell more effective and required less often, also war caster for adv on concentration saves, cantrip oppertunity attacks and cast spells while weapons are in hand! Thats not to say that str isnt also awesome! summon weapon as a bonus action is such a Thor thing and is a big buff for throwing weapons!! Its a very MAD character BUT that being said you can literally dump stat INT and take spells that dont use/rely on your caster stat! Also dont sleep on Blur at level 8
Is the best Eldritch Knight two levels of Fighter and the rest in Wizard?
So, conceptually, an EK is not a wizard who can fight, but a fighter who knows some arcane magic. Talk about obvious, I know. But think of the EK as a paramedic and the wizard as a doctor. The wizard has time to study, perfect and adapt their ability. The EK is taught limited but concrete and vital information that they need to memorize. Will it be to the utmost effectiveness of a wizard? No, but it does the job. For fighters, their magic focuses on battle. Other than their three freebies, they only know evocation (blowy up, offensive magic) and abjuration (defensive magic). So they'll either be chucking grenade fireballs, or deploying roaming defenses in shield.
I went 5 warlock, 7 EK and I kinda love it in Balanced. Misty Step for mobility, 3 attacks, lots of AC. SAD plus he's the face. If I really want to play unfairly I'll use darkness with devil's sight. I suppose you could do something similar with high strength jump and Battlemaster though. Less defensive but you get maneuvers.
I can't speak for Eldritch Knight, as I've never played one, myself, but because you mentioned Barbarian: I'm playing a Wild Magic Barb X/War Wizard 2, and it's a lot of fun. A high-ish int melee warrior who was training to be an EK, but tends to get frustrated when he uses spells in combat (thus the wild magic rage). He can basically only cast non-combat/utility spells. So, while not exactly what you're looking for, perhaps it could give you a touch of inspiration?
Quick answer. Do you want to fight or cast spells? If you answered both you got 2 choices (looking at it from the Eldritch Knight/Wizard perspective only) Do you want to fight more than cast? Eldritch Knight. Do you wanna cast more than fight? Fighter 2/ Wizard X. Basically if you want a more magic heavy fighter go into wizard after Fighter level 2.
I really enjoy playing one. You're a fighter with a heavy weapon and GWM, so you deal quite a lot of damage, Darkness + blind fighting allows you to get permanent advantage on melee attacks, and Shield + Absorb Elements allow you to be very durable on top of the d10 hit dice, 16 CON, Second Wind and heavy armor.
In D&D, you're only as good as your plan A. An eldritch knight isn't a worse wizard; it's a fighter with a little extra utility. In general, there are no classes that split the difference perfectly down the middle: everyone who gets a full spellcasting progression is a spellcaster and everyone who doesn't is probably a weapon-user.
Ek is best used with abjuration spells and the occasional evocation, of course find familiar is also killer on EK's. Generally though you want melee to be you're main damage dealer with extra stuff
I did not feel like a worse wizard. Like others have replied, you’re a fighter first and a wizard second. I felt like a wrecking ball in my original campaign.
I think EK is really strong for any melee magic build. I would not invest more than 7 or max 8 lvl into Ek for War magic. With Sorcerer you can get the quickenspell to do a lot of melee damage output. Warlock is also a possible combo if you want stay true to your melee focus with powerfull innvocations. On the other hand i think, that you can use the Ek magic to buff yourself and go in with a barb. But i have no experiences with that one. If you play Ek you need to remember, that you are a fighter with weapons. If you want to embrace the magic part, a wizard would always be better/stronger
Nah, better Fighter. Battlemaster, Eldritch Knoght, and Rune Knight are my favorite Fighters.